Thursday, August 30, 2007

K-Toy Video Discovered

On Steorn's forum today, RunningBare points us all to the full version of the k-toy video:

As folks point out in the forum, audio and parts of the video have been available since the beginning of this year, but this is the first time non-insiders get to see the full video. In the video, we see Thieu Knapen, founder of Kinetron, expressing how unbelievable Steorn's invention is and how certain he is that it is real.

49 comments:

Vardan1899 said...

Cool!!!

Let's see some "action"...

Kinetron "knows" it all, and how to make it work for sure!!! They also have the tech to "fake" it all too :-(

So Lets just see a tiny little "anything working" :-|

If they have anything to show... They must have a few real scientific papers by now to offer as to "why"...

Or they are going to go down the same tube as Steorn...

Vardan1899

Kuhar said...

I actually saw some video of the K-toy on Youtube awhile back. In this video, as in the video I saw, the toy does not return to it's starting position. It also quite obviously requires manual intervention to both trigger the device and reset the device. In the video the larger of the two weights (magnets?) is raised by the combined efforts of the smaller of the two weights (magnets?) falling and a pair of oddly placed magnets doing something to a string.

It appears to me that resetting and triggering the device require more input than could be generated by the operation. I'm not a scientist and I've not "run numbers," but it looks to me that there's no OU happening in the video. In a best case scenario I suppose that the device could be using a combination of gravity and magnetism; gravity and magnetism to raise the larger weight and the then the larger weight falling to reset the device (not demonstrated in either video). I just don't see how this configuration (or anything like it) could possibly overcome the energy lost to friction. I just don't see it.

Show me something. Show me something and I'll consider believing, but until I see something... My patience is wearing thin, lets just put it that way.

JTerry said...

@ All and Dr. Mike in Particular:

Riddle me this Batman;

He claims he tested some device and received amazing results. He says it was clear from those measurements that the thing was producing more energy than it was consuming. But then he says all he needs to do now is develop the machine.

Err, what?

How could he have made any measurements to begin with if he had no machine in the first place, which is what he really saying here? That is, where is the thing upon which he conducted the measurements that produced the amazing results? Would not that thing itself be the much sought after OU machine? And why would it need to be further developed?

Dr. Mike does what he is saying here make any sense at all? I'm terribly confused.

Anonymous said...

Why would anyone with an "OU" device contact Kinetron ?
Kinetron is the prof that Steorn is a scam and fraud.

Senthil Kumar said...

I suspect this was wantedly leaked by Steorn or someone connected with Steorn.

Mr. Knapen's view cannot be brushed away. It would be great if he made a public statement saying that he still thinks that the effect is for real.

Anonymous said...

Looks like they have deleted the thread after they were sure enough people saw it.

The interesting part of the video is the fact that so many people fail to spot the SMOT. :)

Stoerns PR strategy is also remarkable.

Anonymous said...

the thread with the link is no longer on the Steorn Forum.

Anonymous said...

So the thread on this disappeared from the forum. I don't see what the big deal is, the audio of this video is still linked on a thread from last February. Makes you wonder if the real objection comes from Knapen, that he doesn't believe anymore. That video was shot at least 2 1/2 years ago and that device was discarded a long time ago.

-deathklok

Thicket said...

Lol. A Dutch watchmaker who runs a small company and needs a comb expresses his amazement at the Steorn device? *This* is the credible scientist the believers have been touting as evidence that Steorn has the real thing??

Is Kinetron the European manufacturer that there was so much speculation about? A whole 30 employee company? Philips must be shaking in their boots with fear.

Anonymous said...

It is not so obvious that this toy generates energy.
Are the weights from same material?
How big is potential energy stored in magnetic forces before triggering the toy and after? Certainly they are different as magnets positions are different before and after triggering.

Anonymous said...

Ladies and Gentleman, I give you Orbo's true powersource: http://gizmag.com.au/go/7018/

trust no one.

drmike said...

jterry: "Dr. Mike does what he is saying here make any sense at all? I'm terribly confused."

This is due to the fact that you have a brain and you are attempting to engage it! Your confusion will vanish when you stop thinking!! :-)

This is the first time I've seen the whole video and heard any audio. There is absolutely no description of the mechanical device at all! I think it's safe to assume there is no connection between what he says and what he's showing.

What's also interesting is that nobody lays claim to actually building the k-toy. Unless the whole thing is computer generated (possible, but not likely) somebody actually machined all those parts. It's well built and nice looking. That took a long time to do. Once we find out who built it, we can ask them a few questions.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

Sludgemover said...

drmike said...
I think it's safe to assume there is no connection between what he says and what he's showing.

As he is talking to the interviewer at the start, and leaning on the bench, you can see the device next to his arm and even barely make out the extra weights.

Later you see a hand (his hand I am sure) operating the device, which is on the same bench you saw earlier with the same extra weights lying around.

It is clear that the voiceover is Knapen and that he is talking about the device he is shown operating.




What's also interesting is that nobody lays claim to actually building the k-toy. Once we find out who built it, we can ask them a few questions.


Almost a sure bet that Knapen built it. In the unlikely event that he did not, so what, he knows how it works so he can answer any questions about it.

Anonymous said...

Steorn and Kinetron are all the one. The so called tech that Steorn are promoting is the work/beliefs of Thieu Knapen. Steorn and Thieu Knapen paths must have crossed a number of years back and somehow Knap must have impressed Sean et al into believing his "big discovery". Steorn are the IP development company(middlemen) that brought it to the world.

drmike said...

Thieu Knapen is a common name - it is the name of a flower!
See http://www.roessefuchsia.com/2006/2006%20Roes/pages/Thieu-Knapen-kl.htm
for a picture.

I don't know if this person is the same Thieu Knapen as the Kinetron inventor. Here's a picture of another Thieu Knapen:
http://www.pinmaekers.nl/images/1995Thieu.jpg
taken from
http://www.pinmaekers.nl/AodprinsenGallerij.htm

There's no description of the mechanics in the video, and none has ever been provided since it surfaced. I don't get any connection between what he says and what he shows. A bunch of words and a cool mechanical object make a great movie. Just like "Pirates of the Carribean" is a great movie with lots of motion - it has no connection to reality at all.

maryyugo said...

"Steorn are the IP development company(middlemen) that brought it to the world. "

Brought what to the world? Claims without evidence? Failed demonstrations? Nonsense lectures? Plastic spinning toys that run down? Huge expenditures of investor dollars? Unnecessary juries that don't report and can't be found? Developer groups that don't develop anything? What exactly has Steorn and company and friends done in a year other than talk? And that's not to mention the previous three years they claim they worked on overunity!

"Technology"? WHAT technology? We've seen no technology whatsoever from Steorn. In four years of "work" and one year of forums, interviews, lectures and discussions, absolutely NOTHING credible or of ANY value has come from Steorn. Apparently that doesn't faze the believers one bit. Amazing. Astounding. That's the real story here-- the believers.

bc said...

Mr Knapen like others, has managed to fool himself with a convoluted contraption. Kaplan is right, the user adds the necessary potential energy to lift the final weight. It is a well made machine, but the complex system of weights and levers obscures what is really happening. This is pretty typical when people try to invent OU devices.

Magnatrix said...

I have restored the removed thread.

I'd also like to remind you all, that this "toy" was binned a long time ago.

Sludgemover said...

drmike said...
I don't know if this person is the same Thieu Knapen as the Kinetron inventor.



It is. See http://www.kinetron.nl/default.htm?loadurl=http%3A//www.kinetron.nl/cms/publish/content/showpage.asp%3Fthemeid%3D1&inframe=content
Same man as in the video.

Anonymous said...

Its obvious now from the video that the big weight is lifted as soon as the latch is released. The small weight sits there until the left hammer comes and hits the paddle which makes it fall. So its not a case of small weight lifting a big weight. In short its no overunity.

The big magnet resets its position because the small magnet is now out of the way. The small magnets don't reset.

Now what he does is resets the small weight back to the top which bring the small magnet with it to its original position. What he has done is effectively increased the potential energy of the big magnet by making it face the smaller one.

Its as good as bringing the small magnet towards the big one BY HAND which repels back and pushes a weight etc.

Note that even the fall of big weight wont reset the small magnets here, they are not connected.

So in essence this toy is simply a fancy way to push a big magnet using a smaller one. The claim that it produces energy is ridiculous, especially when it comes from a grown up man like Knapen.

Whats obvious is , kinetron is involved in this scam and perhaps the whole OU idea is developed by them which steorn is pushing hard to attract investment.

Sterlingda said...

In response to a question as to why Steorn doesn't rank higher in the New Energy Congress' Top 100 Energy Technologies listing. (http://Top100Energy.com)

Even if the Steorn concept is proven irrefutably valid, does not mean that it is yet practical.

Solar is free energy, but solar is yet more expensive than conventional power. Silicon is expensive. Magnets are expensive.

It takes a lot of engineering to come up with a plausible design. When Steorn accomplishes that, then they will move way up the list.

They should be commended for the role they are playing, but that does not necessarily compute to a high position in the top 100 ranking, which features technologies that are posed now, or shortly to provide cost-effective, clean, reliable, etc. energy solutions.

Senthil Kumar said...

dr mike. why don't you write an email to mr knapen asking some good questions.

While many folks have written to him, he has not answered so far. I am hoping that your "forum representative" status might make him more inclined to answer your questions.

What do you think ?

maryyugo said...

@sterlingda

"Even if the Steorn concept is proven irrefutably valid, does not mean that it is yet practical.

Solar is free energy, but solar is yet more expensive than conventional power."

You're confusing "free energy" in the sense of it not costing anything from nature with overunity. Gasoline is no less free than solar-- both have costs to extract but both are found just lying around in nature. The difference between gasoline and solar is not that solar is "free energy" and gasoline isn't. It's that solar energy is a reliable, renewable source of energy and gasoline can only be consumed once to make energy and is available in limited supply.

PLEASE get these distinctions straight or you are liable to fall for some very obvious scams.

Steorn's claim is not free energy-- it's overunity. That means a machine that makes more energy than what you put in. That sort of discovery would revolutionize ALL of science. It would also receive massive attention and development. And while it would certainly cost something to make it practical, the net economic benefits would be essentially unlimited.

Of course, Steorn (or anyone else) has never demonstrated anything even resembling overunity. All of modern physics is practical, tangible evidence that such a thing is impossible. Yet, people make such claims and they have always been based on the flimsiest premises (Steorn), obvious measurement errors (maybe Naudin and colleagues), and obvious fraud (most of the others).

drmike said...

@senthil - I think it would be a waste of time at this point. If it's been over 2 years since the video was made, and nothing else has been seen or heard of this, then it's safe to assume even Knapen (thanks sludgemover) isn't pushing it any more.

It would be interesting to know the connection (if any) between this and the original "start - stop" claims. But that's more curiosity, it's not important.

bc said...

Is there anything that Steorn have come up with that has stood up to scrutiny, once sufficient information has been given to prove or disprove it?

All the claims and "toys" Steorn come up with get binned, but yet some people still believe they might have something.

K-toy - BINNED
Nodding donkey - BINNED
550 HP claim - BINNED
Kinetica demo - BINNED
Steorn - ...

They have been working on it over 2 years, they have a very full trash can and nothing else.

Anonymous said...

>They have been working on it over 2 years, they have a very full trash can and nothing else.

Four years ( three years leading up to the Economist ad and a year since then).

Four years and they cannot put on a simple demo. Four years and they have no proof. A year without any income or outcome.

A great way to usher in a new age. I cannot wait to see this documentary they got cooking.

Anonymous said...

Another interesting thing is that this video is unlisted, which means that runningbare did not find it through google videos by chance as he claims.
Here's what google says about unlisted videos

http://video.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=48320

Anonymous said...

-----------
Another interesting thing is that this video is unlisted, which means that runningbare did not find it through google videos by chance as he claims.
Here's what google says about unlisted videos

http://video.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=48320
-------------

Maybe the video found him. You never know what happens next in a world where things like free energy and money trees exist.

maryyugo said...

In the Steorn forums, the question has come up: Did Sean think of the Kinetica toy as clearly showing overunity? (not in exactly those words). Someone linked to the answer:

"Skeptical" asks: "The Kinetica Toy video was shown and that certainly wasn't OU! Again, the impression was it demonstrated "some feature" of their technology. If it didn't why show it? So I suppose the same can be asked of the post-validation PR toy. Maybe it will be like one of those toys you get at McDonalds. "

Sean replies:

"lol, the power of assumption strikes again, in fact the 'Kinetica Toy' showed a far greater level of OU than we understood at the time - the point is that there is no way to defend a video without test data and there is no way that such test data can be seen as real. The point about the products is that unlike the version of the Kinetica toy 'seen on video' there is no manual intervention, they self sustain.

Sean"

The current Steorn forum thread.

What Sean said about the Kinetica Toy (permalink)

Uhhun. So where are those versions and products now? And if the Kinetica Toy was overunity, where's the evidence for that other than what someone says?

The current Steorn forum thread is also amazing because Babcat again and again restates that the problem for Steorn is that people won't believe them if they have overunity. That is beyond extremely silly to such an extent that it is absolutely amazing a human being who can put on his pants in the morning without help believes it.

And noteworthy: Magnatrix threatened to ban someone who pointed out how absurd Babacat is and dared to quote that Steorn Forum pariah James Randi. Good going Magnatrix-- your insecurities are showing again.

As if anyone could possibly or conceivably want to stop 450% overunity and 0.5W/cc power generation if it were true. Some people are really so ignorant and bullheaded, it's wasteful to answer them. Most of them will NEVER learn. They are logic (and fact)-immune. Sadly, though he may be a "nice person", Babcat falls squarely in that category.

Why bring these links and quotes up now? Because they demonstrate that the only perpetual thing Sean and the guy in the video both have is a huge lot of perpetual bullshit.

Anonymous said...

I'm going to be passing thru Tilburg in the next couple of weeks... I'll see if I can speak to Mr. Knapen and ask him what's up.

Magnatrix said...

@ Mary
stop attacking me.

You are wrong again.

I didn't threaten to ban someone for attacking babcat.
( although I certainly could have)

I told him to stop,& told him why it was an attack.
I questioned the motive.
I told him th that if he wished to discuss with babacat about this subject (which was off-topic,btw), that he should ask babcat for his email or chat-handle(s).

Ever notice that you appear to be always attacking, and/or bitching & complaining about everyone?

I hope this is just your online persona, and not your regular state; otherwise, that would be just sad

Best Wishes :-)

John Toland said...

Anonymous said...

I'm going to be passing thru Tilburg in the next couple of weeks... I'll see if I can speak to Mr. Knapen and ask him what's up.


Maybe you should email him first and find out if he has any interest in meeting with you.

Anonymous said...

Hey Magnatrix, what was the reason you banned Maryyugo?

maryyugo said...

@Magnatrix


I was stating facts, not insulting you. Want some insults? See below (and even that is the truth):

Any "suggestion" by you has to be taken as a threat to ban because you ban capriciously, without warning, and you tend to ban those who make cogent and sensible arguments against Steorn's claims. I should know. You banned me on the suspicion that I was someone else-- someone else whom you banned for no valid reason.

"Ever notice that you appear to be always attacking, and/or bitching & complaining about everyone?"

Uh... no, I didn't notice that. Usually I am "bitching and complaining" about ridiculous and obvious nonsense propagated in that absurdly one sided forum you moderate. Complaining about Steorn is entirely logical-- they have wasted thousands of people's expectations, honest interest, money, and time.

It seems fairly clear by now that, for whatever reason, Steorn lied about having a working device,and, at best, they were "mistaken" about the need for a "jury" and there's been no evidence since the first announcement that a jury exists. If there is one, they are suspiciously quiet.

Your co-moderator Crank could call two supposed jury members but of course she doesn't want to burst the idiot bubble so she doesn't.

Now, FYI, the comments below are the only part of anything I wrote about you which could remotely be called insulting-- and even that is fact:

You and Crank are pitiful. You can't seem to put a logical thought together from both of your brains.

@"anonymous" who's thinking of visiting Kinetron. Good luck with that. If you do get in, keep good notes and take a camera with you if they allow it.

Anonymous said...

Yo Mags,

What ever happened to the "webfile" you supposedly saw?

Where are the "100,00" toys?

Where is Sean?

Where is Babcats reasoning ability?

Where are the "super 7"?

Anonymous said...

What, and lose the element of surprise? ;-)

Skidoo said...

maryyugo wrote:
----
I should know. You banned me on the suspicion that I was someone else-- someone else whom you banned for no valid reason.
----
Same EXACT thing happened to me. Except it wasn't Magnatrix who banned me, but that other paranoid schizophrenic, Crank. Although, to be fair, I don't know the reason she banned the person she thought I was. Wacky Steorn shills. Sheeple with Napoleon complexes. :-)

Anonymous said...

maryyugo said...

You banned me on the suspicion that I was someone else-- someone else whom you banned for no valid reason.

Mary, if Magnatrix confused you with someone else, I am sure that if you politely explain that to her, and humbly ask to be reinstated, she will unban you. All you need to do is send an email to her contact address.

Anonymous said...

Skidoo said...
Same EXACT thing happened to me. Except it wasn't Magnatrix who banned me, but that other paranoid schizophrenic, Crank. Although, to be fair, I don't know the reason she banned the person she thought I was. Wacky Steorn shills. Sheeple with Napoleon complexes. :-)

As I said to Mary, if you want to be unbanned, send an email to one of the moderators explaining the mixup and politely and humbly ask to be unbanned.

You should probably also apologize for the insults you have been hurling at the moderators.

If you aren't mature and humble enough to do those things, you aren't worth unbanning, are you?

maryyugo said...

"Mary, if Magnatrix confused you with someone else, I am sure that if you politely explain that to her, and humbly ask to be reinstated, she will unban you. All you need to do is send an email to her contact address. "

I sent a very polite request at the time and I was ignored. I still have that email somewhere so if it interest you, I can post it here.

You have to remember that Magnatrix and Crank rarely say why people are banned and rarely warn people when their exquisitely sensitive sensibilities are being offended. Ask humbly you say? What do you think these two illogical and arbitrary censors who seem to know absolutely nothing of science or technology are? Royalty?

At this point in time, why bother to post to the Steorn forum? Among the remaining credophiles, nut cases and whackoes are a few reasonable people who know how science works and they're doing a fine job of responding to the woowoo's.

As for Steorn, they finished off what remained of any credibility they might have had when they flopped at Kinetica and were unable to show anything else of value to Dr. Mike or other attendees.

Anonymous said...

Why should maryyugo apologize?
If she was banned because of mixup, then that's the only thing she should explain..
And it's Magnatrix who should be apologizing for the insults.

Also Magnatrix should propose modification to the forum TOS, explicitly stating, that questioning "Babcat's logic" becomes a bannable offense.

Anonymous said...

I love the 70's porno music in the background.

Magnatrix said...

For the final time, she was not banned for being "pennies" ( & again, I liked pennies, and had a few enjoyable conversations with her/him).
She was banned for, well to put it frankly, being a bitch. Besides not being able contain herself on her cynicism, ( you can't say fraud,hoax,liar,scam, conman on steorn anymore) She kept essentially thumbing her nose at me, when asked to not cross post what I said, that had been removed.

I said something a long the lines of, if you come back on (to steorn.com) you would not be able to not say ( the above mentioned) banned words.
( yes, that was a double negative sentence..lol)
and "she" said something like " I see your point"... which I take as a confirmation that "she" would not be able to hold her tongue.

so I created the skeptics section on fizzx.com, and invited her to join it ( I even enabled her account there for "her")

You can't expect me to be taking crap all the time and not retaliate. I'm sorry that I'm a person, and my feelings do actually have barring on my actions, but there it is.
Anyone who admins a forum, would encounter the same sort of conflicts.
I'd like to be "fair" for the most part, but sometimes I might not be. I'm human.

So Mary, maybe if you hadn't kept on & on about me, every chance you got, I might have changed my mind, (I see that your "scientific knowledge" has increased 10 fold since you started this. And good for you, really I mean that with good intentions), but you've gone way too far with your attacks and I won't be reinstating you anytime soon ( which is not to say "never".. I have un-banned several people)... and I suppose that's fine for you because you just stated that you weren't interested in posting on steorn.com anyway.

(rhetorical question: so if you really aren't interested, why do you keep bringing it up?)

Magnatrix

ps- I don't know how many times I have had to say this: I DID NOT put the "pennies" name on maryyugo's account.

Skidoo said...

Anonymous wrote:
---
As I said to Mary, if you want to be unbanned, send an email to one of the moderators explaining the mixup and politely and humbly ask to be unbanned.
---

I sent a message to Magnatrix. Here's her reply:
---
Hi XXXXXX
I'm sorry that that happened to you. you said "czech dream" and something else (cant remember now) that got Crank's back up. We had problems with certain posters previously and your post was along the lines of those people.
Rather then my having a discussion with crank about this, I would suggest just creating a new account ( you can even use the same email address as I editted the other one for this purpose).
Make a new account and then email me.. I'll unban it for you.
---

I rolled my eyes and thought to myself, "Whatever!" Banned essentially for ***mentioning*** Czech Dream? Good grief. lol

Anonymous wrote:
---
You should probably also apologize for the insults you have been hurling at the moderators.
---

Yeah, uh-huh. Right. Sorry, but the evidence clearly shows they're chock-full-o-nuts. "As advertised," ya know?

Anonymous wrote:
---
If you aren't mature and humble enough to do those things, you aren't worth unbanning, are you?
---

I'm immature?! HAHAHAHA! Oh man...LMAO....

Anonymous said...

Magnatrix said...
you can't say fraud,hoax,liar,scam, conman on steorn anymore


Would I be banned from Steorn if I said it was a macs or a duarf? or if I called Sean a rail or namnoc?

Thicket said...

Give it up Magnatrix. Stop trying to defend your actions. You were a bitch (using same word you used for MaryYugo) and banned MaryYugo because she was forceful and convincing, besmirching the reputation of your idol, Sean McCarthy. You used your power to remove her from the Steorn forums. You delude yourself about your 'fairness'. You're s Sean toadie.

It must really irk you that MaryYugo has technical and practical knowledge compared to your superstitions, fantasies and delusions.

maryyugo said...

About Magnatrix's comments, first, I certainly did not put "Pennies" on my account profile-- I could not have because at the time, I'd never heard or read anything about "Pennies". So if you didn't do it, Crank or someone else who was grossly misusing their admin priviledges to misleadingly alter a user's profile must have done it.

Next, I am going to post links to a search for all posts I made on Steorn's forum so anyone can see how objective, non-insulting, and issue-oriented they were.

Link to all posts on Steorn's forum by maryyugo.

Finally, I am providing a link to all (there were only three) emails exchanged between me and Magnatrix. The only edits are to remove email addresses and replace them with asterisks so robots can't pick them up to spam us with.

All emails I exchanged with Magnatrix.

From the above and much more information, anyone can see that Crank and Magnatrix have banned people and removed posts capriciously and with the general intent of protecting Steorn from their clearest and most effective critics.

Now Magnatrix, instead of personalities please address some simple issues:

1) Why is a jury necessary to test Steorn's wild claims of 450% overunity and 0.5 watts/cc power density when such claims are easily testable by any reasonably capable physics student in less than a day?

2) Why has Steorn never shown any overunity device to anyone capable of testing it properly?

3) If Steorn has any working overunity devices at all, why did Steorn drag Dr. Mike (and many others) thousands of miles to Kinetica and waste his week without showing him anything at all worth his effort?

Lots of luck making believable excuses.

maryyugo said...

@Magnatrix

Oh... I forgot to address your remark about "cross posting". Banning doesn't prevent anyone in any way from cross posting so banning for that purpose, like so many things done and said on Steorn's bizarre forum, makes absolutely no sense.

Anonymous said...

Finally someone managed to close the loop on k-toy. Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_naM8atOXE

The background voice sounds like magnatrix.