Friday, June 29, 2007

Is it or Isn't It?

Yesterday, an anonymous poster here and another anonymous source over at Dispatches from the Future claim to know details about the upcoming July demo. I almost didn't blog about the topic, I normally try to make sure any posts I make here have some substance.

Instead of spending time mulling over this potential leak, I'd like to bring up a related point. The SPDC is growing in size, and it will become, or has already become, very difficult to determine which members leak proprietary information out to the public, and even if it is possible to determine who leaked the information, the situation still boils down to the information being leaked.

For this reason, I find the SPDC NDA requirement a bit silly. Steorn must have realized from the start that anything presented to the SPDC has a very good chance of being leaked. The more revealing the information, the more quickly it will make it out to the blog-o-sphere. For those SPDC'ers out there, if this is all real, I cannot imagine a situation where Steorn would provide any substantial information to the entire 200+ SPDC'ers which would allow anyone to replicate their findings. If this is not real, then the SPDC'ers have signed an NDA with a company that has unknown intentions.

Could the whole purpose of this exercise in Free Energy be something as simple as attempting to scale up online security? Could Steorn have raised 14 million euros over the past three years to develop a product that can monitor online contractual agreements or something along those lines?

43 comments:

ben said...

(hairykrishna)

I did entertain the idea that it might be a scam to extract people’s personal details and demonstrate that it is easy get people to sign contracts, which they don’t really understand, with unknown companies. Some kind of ‘look how easy fraud is, hire our company to protect you!’ pitch/advert. I think it has dragged on too long for that though. I now think the whole NDA/SPDC thing is just a device to separate the believers from the dissenting voices. It also serves the purpose of making the people who think they are on to something special and are superior to the ‘cynics’ feel even more special.

I am intrigued by the ‘leak’ of what the demo is supposedly going to be. I hope it does turn out more impressive that a spiny thing in a box – I would like to see a demo which they have at least made some effort to make look real (i.e. look hard to fake). I like hard to decipher magic tricks.

Anonymous said...

If this demo goes ahead and Steorn do indeed show the world how to make something spin indefinitly using just magnets would this not affect thier patent applications ? Would this not be against everything Sean has ever said about why he cannot tell people this, that or the other.
Are Sean's 'lawyers' not telling him he's not allowed to do this as they have before ?

Quite frankly if they can put this device on show to the world then they could write a proper scientific review and if no-one published it then they could just post it online. Or even pay for the space in any scientific journal.

Instead they are putting on a show at an art gallery again. Not a museum or university but an art gallery. A gallery dedicated to Kinetic Art, and Steorn wonder why people laugh at them and thier rabid believer's !

It only get's more ludicrous as time goes on.

Publish your finding's Steorn, that is the only way (sane) people will ever believe you.

nleseul said...

"Spiny thing in a box"?

LOL—guess it's not hamster-powered; it's hedgehog-powered!

maryyugo said...

"Some kind of ‘look how easy fraud is, hire our company to protect you!’ pitch/advert."

Remember, they collected millions of euros from investors under the claim of a free energy "over unity" device. If they were really trying to show something else, that's fraud as far as those investors are concerned. I'd be concerned if I'd invested hundreds of thousands of euros or more-- wouldn't you?

SteornTracker said...

maryyugo,

My speculation implicitly includes the investors being in on the secret. Sorry about the confusion. Clearly if Steorn raised money as a free energy company and turn out to be something else, that would be considered a fraud.

Anonymous said...

Nobody really knows what the investors invested in. Just because Steorn is putting on this big show about free energy, that does not mean that is what is really going on, or is what the investors bought into.

Anonymous said...

On the SPDC NDA;
It’s basically based on the honour system. Tracing leaks to the source with hundreds of potential offenders is near impossible. Even if they do, how do you claim damage? In theory, my brother or room-mate could have assumed my identity to join the SPDC. What if the name on the NDA is an alias? ;)

Did Steorn not think of this? Of course they did, and the SPDC will be (and has been) told nothing that would require and NDA. So why the SPDC?

Anonymous said...

Babcat has been quoting WWE wrestlers in his proclamations.

Hmmm. It's becoming much clearer now. God, Professional Wrestling, Steorn Overunity.......guess you just have to believe.

AK47 said...

Interesting theory you got there.. with a flaw, though.

15-India-Street said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Here is the true story. The Demo will be held at the Science Museum, Exhibition Road, South Kensington, London on July 6 thru July 12th. I have a friend who is doing some catering for the media that week. It will not be announced until July 5th to the media.

Anonymous said...

Steorn is not fire 2.0 but dot-com 2.0. It's a legitimate business to hunt for the holy grail of free energy, even if it's completely stupid. The bursting dot-com bubble may have been their inspiration, and they probably know the rules of the game.

As a libertarian i think they deserve what they reap, what ever that may be.

Anonymous said...

"The Demo will be held at the Science Museum, Exhibition Road, South Kensington, London on July 6 thru July 12th."

Uhhhh...thats only six days.

couldbe said...

What I find odd is that anybody thinks the demo could possibly be of a device that just spins without pulling a load.

Do you think Steorn is so stupid that they would demo a device like that? They would be laughed out of town.

And why would they allow DrMike to poke around the device if it's just a low-friction device that doesn't do any work?

At least give Steorn credit for some brains.

Thicket said...

@Couldbe

1. Driving a load.
2. Letting Dr. Mike physically touch and examine the device.

So, if both these things don't happen in July, can I assume that you will become a complete skeptic?

James said...

I received an NDA but gut instinct told me not to sign it. Besides, if this thing is real then I'll get to find out eventually anyway.

Initially I was worried that Steorn might try and cash in by sueing every SPDC member at the first 'leak', but legally I don't think this is viable.

Sometimes I wonder if perhaps Steorn has quietly invested millions in a super magnetic element like neodymium or samarium. A 'leak' one day emerges that neodymium is an essential component to an infinite energy machine. Nothing else will work. Suddenly neodymium is the most precious commodity in the world. Steorn refuse to confirm or deny the 'leak' and as the media speculation grows, so does the price of neodymium. Before everyone realises they've been duped, Steorn quickly sell off their commodity and pocket massive profits in the process.

couldbe said...

If 1. doesn't happen I will become a rabid skeptic who thinks they are charlatans running some sociological study or God knows what.

If only 2. does not happen, I will be disappointed and climb up on the fence.

Anonymous said...

"Uhhhh...thats only six days. "

Well, my friend is only catering that long. Maybe the demo runs longer.

maryyugo said...

Hi Couldbe.

"If 1. doesn't happen I will become a rabid skeptic who thinks they are charlatans running some sociological study or God knows what."

Just FYI --People don't collect millions of euros under false pretenses to perform "sociological studies". So "if 1", think fraud. I'm afraid you might not even know what a "rabid skeptic" is much less have the ability to become one.

"If 2": That would virtually prove that whatever they show has a hidden power source.

If Steorn is legitimate, they must show a device which runs under its own power, runs a load, and they will allow someone such as Dr. Mike to take it apart sufficiently to rule out completely that it has a hidden battery or other energy source.

Please don't have a short memory. Steorn has promised a water pump for Africa, a 550 HP motor -- all in the short term. And they claim that their existing device has a power density of 0.5 watt/cm cube. That's substantial power-- not trivial. Steorn must be held to its claims.

Anonymous said...

So..a scam to bump the price of Neodymium etc? There is no Neo futures market for Steorn to bump. So no dice there.
The Chinese government, however, have recently upped the price of Neo and are doing so again in August. Perhaps this is all part of a fiendish Chinese plot to take over the world. Shee Wan Mak ar Thee is revealed at last! Get real, this is happening.

nleseul said...

If they're trying to do something clever like drive up the price of neodymium, surely they would be clever enough to realize that an "infinite energy machine" is impossible, and any leaks pertaining to one would be laughed at by the vast majority of investors.

That's one thing I find unconvincing about just about any scam scenario. This supposed scam could have been made much more convincing if they'd chosen something else for their "technology," like working cold fusion, or a cheap hydrogen engine.

Anonymous said...

I called the Science Museum in London and asked about the Stoern demo and they said to call back on Monday and talk to a Laura Singleton because he could not comment on it. I don't know who she is.
Weird. Maybe some truth to it?? I'll call on Monday.
Maybe a Demo at two locations?

Anonymous said...

Do you honestly think the Science Museum would touch this with a 10 foot pole?

Even if Steorn is true, the Science Museum won't have it on display until more than half of mainstream science believes in it.

Anonymous said...

As someone who has seen the demo Orbo rev4.c, I must urge you all not to make light of this situation. The demo (or "4c" as they have nicknamed it) will be at Kinetica on 7/7/07 (Steorn picked this as a 'memorable' date for historical purposes). This event will be unlike anything mankind has experienced. Only one other event could match the magnitude of this and that would be the introduction of extra terrestrials. In other words this is as BIG as it gets, companies will crumble on the day, millions will lose their jobs, markets will crash and some individuals will take their own lives in the aftermath that follows. All I ask is you think about that before you make jokes. Ultimately things will settle and our new world will emerge. The Orbo on display is the 0.72 megawatt prototype '4c', fully self sustaining. The proof that it is 'real' will be visual, not in the sense of moving parts but in the distortion field surrounding the device as it reaches peak output. It is unlike anything you will ever see, ever.

15-India-Street said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
maryyugo said...

"As someone who has seen the demo Orbo rev4.c, I must urge you all not to make light of this situation."

Why not? Nothing has been demonstrated yet? Can't we have a good time until it is?

"The Orbo on display is the 0.72 megawatt prototype '4c', fully self sustaining. "

You know, that's awfully easy to say. How do we know it's not a joke, a delusion, mood altering substances, or just from a kid playing on a computer?

"The proof that it is 'real' will be visual, not in the sense of moving parts but in the distortion field surrounding the device as it reaches peak output."

Well, is that something entertaining to look fowrward to? That's... well, to be polite, STRANGE. It would make a lot more sense to power an electrical generator and light up the night, wouldn't it? Anyway, what exactly *is* a distortion field?

(Now listen for the crickets chirp in the night... I don't think Professor X or this latest "anony mouse" is going to respond to rational questions)

Anyway, we'll soon know what Steorn has, literally, up their sleeves. Why make fanciful guesses? Why not just wait?

Anonymous said...

"0.72 megawatt prototype"

Isn't that about what a 550bhp genset could make?

Bob said...

Everything I know says Orbo cannot be true, but I also know I don't know everything. It's worth remembering that cold fusion seemed like an amazing breakthrough that went nowhere.

It's either an incredible technological development or an incredible wind-up, I can't decide which. I'm able to drop in to London this week to see what sort of history being made. Keeping an open mind is making my head ache, I hope the demo is conclusive, one way or the other!

Anonymous said...

@ mary yugo
could you please post this "promise" from Steorn regarding the 550 that you keep going on ( & on & On) about?

I don't remember ever seeing that.
but I do remember Sean stating that there was no such machine!

Why don't you stop posting BS...
actually, why don't you just stop posting? You promised last week that you wouldn't say anything more until the demo, and here you are spouting misinformation.

well you have proved that you aren't Pennies. "she" at least did research what "she" wrote about; not just invented stuff

SteornTracker said...

More rumors appearing in my inbox from "Anonymous Remailer (austria)". I figured I'd share with everyone:

Transcript of telephone call recorded at 17:24 BST Sunday 1st July, 2007

Kinetica receptionist: “Hello Kinetica”

SH: Hi, I’m just looking at your website, what have you got on next week, because the old Soundwaves one has finished hasn’t it?

Kinetica receptionist: Sorry?

SH: The Soundwaves exhition’s over.

Kinetica receptionist: Yes, Soundwaves exhibition is over and then we’ve got a private exhibition next week, umm, which is not curated by Kinetica. It will be open to the public from Thursday, but unfortunately I can’t say anything about it.

SH: From Thursday, yeah, not your normal open times, Wednesday?

Kinetica receptionist: No, because Wednesday we still won’t be set up, So Thursday it is open to public

SH: Right

Kinetica receptionist: and it’s running until the 15th of July.

SH: Right

Kinetica receptionist: And were all the way through, we are staying open Mondays and Tuesdays as well for that week

SH: So of the following week you’ll stay open Monday and Tues?

Kinetica receptionist: Pretty much all the way through from the 5th to the 13th,

SH: From the 5th to the 13th, did you say 15th earlier?

Kinetica receptionist: No the 13th, Friday the 13th, lucky for some.

SH: Ok, excellent, thanks very much goodbye.

Kinetica receptionist: Bye.

maryyugo said...

With thanks to GravityBoots, here's what Sean actually has written over time:

"Thought this might be useful….a reference point for some of Sean’s comments to aid linking, reduce repeated questions and avoid misconceptions.

Sorry but I didn’t record aliases with quotes. Most are relatively new. A couple go way back. Feel free to add anymore you find.
On the technology


Do you actually have a "system" (a mechanical apparatus of some kind containing wheels and magnets and things) that has moving parts, no source of input energy (other than an initial kick or spin or whatever) and in which some of the parts continue to move indefinitely (i.e. until they wear out)?


Steorn

I have answered this many times. Yes (again).


Steorn claims in three years they have never configured the device to drive itself. Self-powered operation is the most fundamental test for OU. Steorn's OU percentages are far beyond losses that would be incurred in any one or two electromechanical conversion steps to get the output coupled to the input.


Steorn

What I said was that we had never connected the technology to a generator, i.e. we have not set it up to produce electrical power, just mechanical. Some may find this strange but you need to understand that the energy involved is mechanical.

As stated the technology does self sustain, and hence output is connected to input.


In an early interview you claimd .5amps per cc and later corrected this to .5w per cc. You also indicated that the power scales as a linear function of the volume, so 2cc would be 1w. A later figure of 4.5w per cc seems to have been introduced - with the clarification that this is the power without space for electrical generation. Are these correct.


Steorn

when I say watts I am generally referring to electrical power output (based on know efficiency of generators), when I say HP I am generally referring to mechanical power output.


Since you didn't correct the actual figures, can we presume you are sticking by them as claimed outputs?


Steorn

Yes



Steorn

The tech does generate power!!!! Its mech power, think of its as an engine, now everyone knows that when you connect an engine to a generator you get electrical power. This is not in fact what would happen with our tech, since the tech is magnets in motion - a 'real' electrical device based around our tech would include coils integrated into the mech part to generate electrical current in one unit. Now as I said months ago we have done some provisional testing with coils, however there are lots of current rectifying issues that need to be resolved (normal engineering stuff). This engineering will not be done by Steorn, this is product engineering.

Steorn

our tech involves stop start motions, we have tested with coils to use them as speed control (an electrical break). Now a final product would involve a flywheel to produce constant motion and hence is not an issue for connection directly to a generator - but we expect that actual products will just involve integrated coils. We will never do this work, this will be done by companies who do this kind of a thing for a living under license from us.

Steorn

It is possible and very easy to convert any motive energy into electrical energy, this also stands for our technology.


Sean says they have hooked their device up to an electrical generator and that they have only produced "mechanical" energy. As converting mechanical energy to electrical is trivial, and they have had 3 years to mess around with it, I have no idea why they have never done this


Steorn

It is just not important from a technical standpoint - we are in a constant state of development on the core effect all engineers buried all the time with work that moves the technology forward. We have no plans to build products (we do have a partner company doing that), we do IP, not products.

Hooking the technology up to a generator does not tell us anything - because the power output from the generator is a funtion of the efficiency of the generator with the power input by our technology - this simply makes the maths more complicated than necessary and serves no purpose.

This fascination with devices and connecting to generators does amuse me. We are developing a platform technology - it gets tested across various scales to demonstrate scalability - whats the largest test, whats the largest prototype, does it really violate CoE and so on and so on.

Steorn

there is no 550 BHP Steorn motor whirring away.

The 550 HP is a derived figure based on test data from test
systems of varying sizes."

Found here: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661

The above speaks for itself, I think. And it makes it very clear that Steorn has a lot of promises to live up to *soon*!

And BTW, Mr. Anonymous (that names suits you) -- I didn't say I wouldn't post anywhere-- just not on the Steorn forum, until the July demo. And I was still "banned" -- but as everyone should know, being banned isn't the same as being unable to post just as claiming a free energy device doesn't mean having a free energy device.

maryyugo said...

Sorry for the double post. I got an error message on the first one but I guess it got through-- admin please delete one if feasible. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

@ Maryyugo

Steorn:
"there is no 550 BHP Steorn motor whirring away."

You just posted it twice yourself, so shut up about 550BHP

Anonymous said...

I just want to quell these Kinetica rumours. There is no show at Kinetica!! Due to technical issues and time constraints the July demo is being pushed out to Q1, 2008. This information will be posted at Steorn momentarily when Caitlin get's the bloody ftp password reset! Don't worry about the delay, it is for good and exciting reason!

Sean

maryyugo said...

I guess I just don't understand some people-- for example "anonymous" (heh!) who says to shut up about the 550hp motor when in fact Sean said: "The 550 HP is a derived figure based on test data from test
systems of varying sizes."

Really? Can we see one of these test systems of "varying sizes"?

However, the other "anonymous" is just as absurd. If Steorn doesn't deliver *something* next week, after all the hoopla and what with Dr. Mike making the trip all the way across the ocean, their credibility will evaporate quicker than ice cream on a hot pavement.

Maybe there's something about calling yourself "anonymous" that makes people post strange and meaningless things?

Anonymous said...

mary yugo said:
"I guess I just don't understand some people-- for example "anonymous" (heh!) who says to shut up about the 550hp motor when in fact Sean said: "The 550 HP is a derived figure based on test data from test
systems of varying sizes.""

I am sick of your continous distortions of facts to suit your uninformed agenda.

Please find the reference to this quote or admit that you made it up.

What Sean actually described was that the forces were measured on a dynamic test configuration. Since speed is component in the power calculations, the speed was estimated based on their experience with various configurations.

Nothing was derived.
Nothing was extrapolated.
Force was measured.
Speed was estimated.

Get it right or shut up.

Anonymous said...

@15 India Street

you said
"@anonymouse
> 0.72 megawatt prototype '4c'

ROTFLMAO - "We want more!""

Well, if you want twice that much, build two.

Anonymous said...

"If Steorn doesn't deliver *something* next week, after all the hoopla and what with Dr. Mike making the trip all the way across the ocean, their credibility will evaporate quicker than ice cream on a hot pavement."

Reporting from the SPDC. Q1, 2008 announcement has been made in the SPDC. As can be imagined a few are hotly disgruntled but the believers are accepting it and moving forward. The general consensus is that we are in this for the long haul and should not expect the world of Steorn. Also, promising new news of Steorn acquiring an additional 3.6 million in funding for Orbo! Life is good! I think I speak for most of the SPDC that we are enjoying being part of this historical event. Be patient folks.

pennies_everywhere said...

@anonymous just how is it good that Steorn is supposedly at the last minute putting off their latest promise to make a first showing of any substance? Why is a six to nine month delay reassuring to you?

I am also curious why you express reassurance in the idea that Steorn would be taking in "3.6 million EU more" when they have previously used claims that they were not taking money as a central pillar supporting their credibility. Thoughts?

Anonymous said...

Two investment scams are beeing investigated in Sweden.
People behaving like "very credible business men" have been able to collect 250 million euro from investors.

In Norway a new "networking sales company" has startet to collect millions from their "members".

This makes Steorn seem like a rather small scale business.
If Steorn have invented the fire and wheel version 2.0 they should be able to collect more money that ordinary scammers do.

Gaby de Wilde said...

So funny to see all the anonymous paranoya talk.

Your blog rocks! HAHAHA

I think you should at least have 1 post about Dennis Lee here. The skeptics love him.

mrferrier said...

I posted two links on Steorn's forum to pages on the Dispatches from the Future blog about the speculation for the demo being at Kinetica from the 5th to the 13th. Those threads were quickly put into "invisible sink" mode, and today, lo and behold, my forum account can't post anymore. I'd say it looks like those posts may be on the right track. Also the dates at this Kinetica URL for their next event (no info but the dates yet) agree with those posts:

http://tinyurl.com/3ynkjq

Anonymous said...

Yep, Steorn are sure making a concerted effort to kill off their open forum.

In my view, taking the temperature of the more credible and critical thinking believers (i.e. not Babcat), if they don't show a self-sustaining AND LOAD BEARING device on Thursday then interest will completely fall away. By load bearing I mean a load that approached the famed .5 w per cc