Saturday, June 9, 2007

Sv Experiment Photos

Today, Dr. Mike posted photos of his new t-shirt and also a few photos of his Sv Experiment. As you can see, reality is a bit different then CG ;-).

Also today, Dr. Mike had this to say about the experiment:

Given Steorn's claim that power is generated, we should see some interesting phenomena which can not be easily explained with standard CoE physics. Since they get a mechanical gain, I would think we can see it with a mechanical set up.

Since I don't know what to look for, the more eyes and minds looking the better. Suggestions for data collection and doing analysis are welcome. It seems like spread sheet type software can do things like plot and mess with the data. Coming up with algorithms takes a little playing with - you need to try stuff, plot it, try something else, plot it and keep playing to see what pops out or changes. Then, when something looks strange, go back and try another experiment with different parameters to see what happens.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

I urge everyone to read James Randi's comments on Steorn. It is tough to read especially if you are one of the hopeful believers. His commentary allows you to step outside and look in, it really solidifies everything and wakes you up. It's like a shot of adrenaline that quickly and clearly brings you back to life and reality. He even discusses identical scams as this and how they manage to dangle the carat for decades while filling their pockets and producing nothing real.

Anonymous said...

Ummm, my two year old could have knocked up something more satisfactory than this.

And you expect to see Sv using this doorstop? Geez DrMike I don't think you have any clue what's going on here do you?

Anonymous said...

@ anonymous (the first one):

Where can we find Randi´s comments on Steorn?
Sorry, but without having read them, I must say that I don´t think that a trick-magician is a trustworthy and especially convincing person to make statements without having any idea what he is talking about. But it would be nice if you could give us a link. We can then see if he is just doing another show again or if he even makes noteworthy points.

drmike said...

@anonymous#2

It's based on what Steorn sent me. Are you saying Steorn doesn't know what they are doing?

Tundrabog said...

I find DrMike's setup more impressive than Steorn's.

Steorn's device cost millions, and we haven't seen it yet. The latest we've seen is the Kinetica contraption.

Quanten said...

Jeez anonymous, did you work in a REAL experimental labor ? I did. In a high temperature physic labor (we fabricated diamond). We modified the form of the plasma by using small scrap of metal found outside (without rust) inserted in the faraday cage. The table was massive wood taken at a nearby finished tall building.

Real physic is MOSTLY not made with the nice shiny equipement you see in film. Most university labor don't have that kind of money. Furthermore what COUNT is how precise you can do a measurement, what DOES NOT COUNT is how expansive was the equipement you used to make the measurement.

I take it that you are not a physicist and just came it to critic without knowing a BIT of what you are speaking about.

JTerry said...

Who cares what it looks like so long as it is a credible device and maintains the integrity of the experiment? I must confess I don't have a clue how to interpret any of the technical data, yet I would not discount any experiment simply because it does not appear to be a million dollar set-up. In fact, wouldn't it be more effecient (from an economic perspective) if the experiment cost less to perform when made as Dr. Mike has done than to spend large amounts of money to make something look "nice"?

Consider Samwise's comments when discussing the nature of Strider: "If you were a servant of the enemy, I would expect you to look fairer but feel fouler."

Anonymous said...

Viz. magician James Randi's take on Steorn, see his "SWIFT - The Weekly Newsletter of the JREF":

August 25, 2006
"Yet Another Free-Energy Farce"

September 22, 2006
"Back to Steorn"

There are also a couple of threads in the associated JREF Forum, one very long (488 posts so far):

"What is wrong with what Steorn is doing?"

Anonymous said...

Randi? You must be joking. James (I'll change the rules of my prize) Randi.

lol - what a joke that guy is!

Quanten said...

Tsk Anonymous, if you really knew what the prize was about you would not laugh at it with contempt. I followed it up since years, and afetr seeing a bunch of what I would call from delusional people fail at it after they wrote their own protocol to be tested (yes the tested write their own criteria of what they need to do with their habilities to win, naturally this is reviewed and agreed with the fundation to eliminate cheating and victory by chance alone), so from delusional dowser downto what I would call people as mad as a hat, but some might friendly call "people with a slight problem in the head", I understand why he changed the rule, although I personally disagreed to the change.

Now he goes after the big fish like silvia-"I like to scam people and hide
myself behind a this is for
entertainment disclaimer for legal
purpose"-brown and uri-"I am a fake and use DMCA to take down video on which I don't even own copyright to hide it"-geller, there are plenty of high profile people to target on. Furthermore this is his own prize. But I think the most telling part is that no high profile people like silvia brown went to be tested EVEN AFTER ANNOUNCING THEY WOULD. Only small fish like said above, msotly delussional dowser and a few psycho better helped with a doctor visit...

FAKER and SCAMMER will always try to find a way out not to be tested (the money is not there (blatantly false), randi make the rule (false the testeee make the a protocol which naturally has to be OK'd), I don't wanna have randi test me (false the preliminary test are made AFAIk without randi by local people), etc...etc...)

So anonymous I can guess why you dislike randi. Let me guess, he pointed out that one of the stuff you believe in is fake and ripe with scam ? What was it ? Free Energy ? Speaking with the dead ? Dowsing ? Magnetic Q bracelet ? Audiophile gold cable ? I can feel the bitterness in your 3 liners post from here. Maybe you were one which wanted to be tested :) ?

ben said...

(hairykrishna)

I like Randi. I do know he upsets people because he occasionally comes across as arrogant and certainly doesn't mince words when dismissing bullshit. I'm fine with it though.

I haven't heard any convincing arguments from anyone eligible for his prize about why they don't need a million dollars. He would be my first port of call if I suddenly discovered something which made me eligible for the prize. Free money and about the most persuasive evidence a sceptic could ask for.
Often attacks on him are made against 'straw man' type arguments. They often focus on his lack of formal scientific training while conveniently ignoring the fact that he is normally advised by experts in the appropriate field.


I agree with the comment that even the most cutting edge physics experiments look a little 'ghetto'. It's easy (and cheap) to knock up something that works from what you have lying around. It's why all physicists are incurable hoarders.

My only concern is that movements in non-rigid stuff will mask viscosity losses. Aren't they meant to be tiny? I guess that's why they're easier to observe in static, transformer style, rigs.
Apologies if this has been addressed already - I read the Steorn boards a lot less these days!

JTerry said...

@ Anonymous:

"Randi? You must be joking. James (I'll change the rules of my prize) Randi.

lol - what a joke that guy is!"

First, he did not change the rules of his prize as you claim. What was changed was the qualification for an applicant. The rules remain the same. Randi's prize has been around since the 1970's, when it was originally financed with $10,000. It has grown over the years. All the lunatics of the world have had 30 plus years to apply, be tested, and win the prize.

Second, Randi's change of qualification is an excellent idea. In doing so, he has chosen to focus on those frauds who do the most damage with their claims of alleged superhuman powers. Browne, Altea, Dubois, etc make a living suckling from the pain and desperation of families with serious issues. It is proper (particularly given Randi's advancing years) to focus resources on scrutinizing and challenging these vampires.

Third, Randi himself does not administer any of the testing. He has a panel of independant scientific personel who undertake the testing. Randi's system was best demonstrated on the BBC show "Horizon" in which homeopathic "cures" were tested and shown to be complete garbage they are. Search youtube for the clip, "Homeopathy - The Test".

Finally, throughout Randi's career he has outed many, many frauds. I do not think he is either arrogant or combative. He has a uniquely inquisitive mind and, despite no formal credentials, a respectable self-learned understanding of science. He is direct and honest to a flaw, which some people misinterpret as "not being nice" (as Alison Dubois the psychic fraud has said). Randi also provides us with at least some measure of quality control and regulation over the scam artists preying upon the believer community, which otherwise would not exist.

Funny that the looneys should demand Randi have scientific credentials when the same is not true of the looney's themselves. For instance, looney's always make the argument that Stan Meyer (an eggregious fraud) did not need to have any scientific credentials because he was a self-taught genius (though only in committing fraud), and the list of other nuts in this category can go on and on. It serves to highlight the great hypocrisy within the community of believers, lunatics, and frauds.

In sum, Randi has been and continues to be a serious cultural and scientific figure. He has not changed the core rules of his prize, only altered the qualification for purposes of focusing resources. His methods and techniques are brutally honest, unlike those upon whom his interests focus.

Anonymous said...

Randi moved the goal posts when he heard about Steorn - his pitiful $1 million wouldn't buy Steorn's paper clips for the year. lol

Anonymous said...

Randi is nothing but a sorry excuse for a magician, pissed off at the world for having a rabbit fall out of his hat.

Don't even make me laugh suggesting people read this old cods bullcrap.

Anonymous said...

Dr Mike

Umm, I highly doubt if that resembles Steorns set up in any way shape or form.

Face it guy, you are way out of your league here. Have a great trip and get ready to start realizing how stupid you looked as a "scientist" dismissing something before you even examined it.

Anonymous said...

1.
Randi moved the goal posts when he heard about Steorn - his pitiful $1 million wouldn't buy Steorn's paper clips for the year. lol

2.
Randi is nothing but a sorry excuse for a magician, pissed off at the world for having a rabbit fall out of his hat.

Don't even make me laugh suggesting people read this old cods bullcrap.

3.
Dr Mike

Umm, I highly doubt if that resembles Steorns set up in any way shape or form.

Face it guy, you are way out of your league here. Have a great trip and get ready to start realizing how stupid you looked as a "scientist" dismissing something before you even examined it.

-----------

1.Believe Steorn turned down Randi not the other way around.

2. 550bhp anyone. First quarter 'technical details' Those were quite the rabbit drop too.

3.What were your thoughts when you examined Steorns 'thingy'. What’s that? You have never seen it? Jumping to conclusions yourself, huh?

Must be eman007. Or Dumb and Dumber.


In case you missed it, the skeptics tend to leave the door open that Steorn may have something even though we doubt it, while you believers seem to leave no room for this to be anything but what YOU believe it to be.

Could those of you who KNOW that Steorn has what it claims, please describe in detail exactly how Orbo works, it's applications and limitations. Should not be hard for those who KNOW that it works.

Or maybe those who KNOW are just fooling themselves.

Anonymous said...

Let's face it. If there were no skeptics at all, the believers would be fighting with each other over which is the proper path;

"We must follow the Gourd!"

"No! We must follow the sandal!"

ben said...

(hairykrishna)

Would anonymous number 1 like to suggest a more satisfactory rig? Or build one?

It's my understanding that seeing hysteresis needs pretty fast switching magnetic fields. This doesn't really lend itself to any sort of mechanical only rig, drmikes should do as well as any.

@drmike

If you actually get to see something interesting in July and would like to borrow some equipment to investigate further, let me know. I can scrounge temporary use of practically anything.

@other anonymous(s)

As has been pointed out above, Randi offered the challenge to Steorn, they turned it down. No 'goal post moving'. I suppose they don't need a million dollars, what with all of their recent investor funding.

drmike said...

@ben

I've got one person who can bring an o'scope and a laptop. I think the laptop should be sufficent. But I'll be there a while and will post if something like a spectrum analyzer might be handy. can't imagine it would, but you never know.

If anyone has a bug sweeper it'd be nice to check for really high frequency power sources - or focused IR or lasers. There are lots of ways of recharging batteries!

And yes anonymous, it will be quite an adventure!

Anonymous said...

riterX brings up a good point about the demo date.

========


drmike:
Can we tell people what the dates are here? I think everyone would love to make plans before the fares go thru the roof!

Steorn:
Not at this stage please we will be letting people know in the not too distant future, you can tell them if they are different than the ones that we gave you (they will not be)

=======

On April 18th, what did Sean mean when he said "we will be letting people know in the not too distant future"?

Anonymous said...

Dr Mike.
I would like to suggest that you prepare to test something very similar to the kinetica device.

Steorn have stated the device trhey demo will be OU and they have stated the same thing about the kinetica device. Taking into account steorn's past history of building up and knocking down perceptions and opinions, i imagine the "demo" will be not a lot more.

Be prepared to meausure weight, work out mechanical work compare magnetic field strength etc.

Be prepared for basics. I am sure that is all you will see.

drmike said...

@anonymous

I'll bring the accelerometer and hall probes along with a way to pipe it all to a laptop. A spring scale sounds like a good thing to bring too, I'll ask in London for one. I bet I can find one some place :-)

In terms of expectaions I have none. I am flabergasted I'm going!! This is an open ended adventure, anything can happen, and probably will.

Like Hunter Thompson said "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro!"

I think it's time to go pro....

ben said...

(hairykrishna)

Rather than attempting to track down various attempts at battery charging, would it not be easier to knock up a Faraday cage to put it in? Some kind of cheap wooden frame / earthed aluminium mesh construction. I am of course envisioning some kind of 'kinetica video' sized device. Might be a problem if it’s bigger. I'm also not sure what kind of facilities you're going to have to work in. You also might have to run it for a long time to rule out batteries if it's not outputting much work. One of those nuclear batteries (RTGs) would be ideal to build one of these scam machines- I doubt Steorn has laid their hands on one though! (if you suspect it you're welcome to borrow one of my radiation survey meters :-) )

I suppose most charging stuff would be simply defeated by moving it to another location. Replacing bits that seem innocuous (parts of frame/lumps of plastic for example) with your own equivalent substitutes might be interesting.

I would take full advantage of Seans oft repeated offer to tear it to pieces ('you can hit it with a hammer' etc).


To be honest, if you get to see a 'working' machine, I doubt you'll find the scam no matter what. No offence meant or any slight on your abilities obviously! It's just that in order to show it to you they must be convinced that the power source is very well obfuscated or their game is over.mm

Anonymous said...

Can't believe some people are going on about Randi and his amazing $1 million dollars. That $1 million dollars has earned him about $50 million in free advertising over the years.

You're all just puppets being led to the tune of Randi's music.

He's about to look very foolish when his quotes about Steorn come back to bite him on the ass. lol

nleseul said...

HK, I'm honstly rather puzzled by your statement that you don't understand why anyone wouldn't need Randi's million. I don't understand why anyone would think they would. Not with a free energy device, at least. There's so much potential for profit with that kind of technology that Randi's million really doesn't amount to much.

I do think Sean's attitude towards Randi is more hostile than is really justified, but his basic stated reasons for not wanting to go after the Randi prize still make perfect sense to me: involving another organization in the release of the product would put them at risk of losing control of the process and of not having their branding the primary one associated with the product in the public mind.

Anonymous said...

Unlike the "believers" Randi will be glad to admit he was wrong. The "believers" will say big oil stopped Steorn if Orbo is not real. Science does not mind being wrong. Faith does!!!

meta said...

nleseul wrote:
"...but his basic stated reasons for not wanting to go after the Randi prize still make perfect sense to me: involving another organization in the release of the product would put them at risk of losing control of the process and of not having their branding the primary one associated with the product in the public mind."


Makes no sense to me. Either they have what they say, or they do not.

How could third party verification possably hurt them...it can't. The more the merrier! Forget Randi, what about Earthtech...hell, what about Caltech?

And what would any such "test" have to do with "product release" or more accurately "Licensing release"? I assume you are aware that a prototype could be subjected to calorimetry on a "black box" basis... the details of how the device works doe's not even have to be disclosed!

Also, what is all this effort to ensconse themselves in the "public mind" when the public is not even their immediate customer?

They are licensing a technology, not selling/making a product!!!!--remember?
Their customer's will be manufactures!

Their customer will be someone who will buy a license and take Steorn's "technology"and create products based on it. And yet Steorn's antics seemed well tuned to alienate any legit manufacture.

"Powered by Orbo" will be like the little "Powered by Intel" sticker on my Dell.

It will be the "Dell"-the Brand of the firm who makes the device- most people will recognize. That "Orbo" technology is involved will be an obscure detail for the masses, the same way the ignition system on a Dodge use to be under license from the late Charles Kettering of General Motors.

They only way to make their "Brand" the primary one in the public mind is to be the exclusive manufacture.

The reason they do not test-with Randi or anyone else- is because they do not have a device.
I predict the July demo will be much like the mockup of an aircraft. It will look like the real deal... it will "demonstrate" what the device is "suppose" to do.

ben said...

@nleseul

If not the million, why not the credibility gained by Randi saying 'it works'? Sean bangs on about how they want validation - JREF are an organisation that sceptics would take seriously and they are offering to test. A positive result from JREF would actually make people sit up and take them more seriously (me included). Their jury result will not.

What do they have to lose if it works?

vLan said...

Do you guys think Steorn is spouting BS, when they say that overunity/PMM machines cannot be patented?
If yes, then what is this?

vLan said...

Btw, recently some guys have reported a breakthrough - successful replication of Steven Mark's TPU by three members of overunity.com forum.
LINK
VIDEO

I wish they are right and we need not chase Steorn's dangling carrot.

nleseul said...

Okay, so maybe the risk that they'll lose control of the product due to JREF involvement is small; I don't know. But the main point is, one more million dollars means so little to them if they really have this technology that there's absolutely no reason they should go through that process if there is any risk, no matter how minuscule, involved.

Anonymous said...

While many believe the Jury is an independent validation vehicle, some points;


1. There is no proof that there is a jury. (No Babs, 007. "Sean said" is not proof)

2. Assuming that there is a jury, it is employed by Steorn. Not independent.

3. Steorn has shown us a contract they say is in force with the jury. There is nothing to show that this is the contract that the jury signed.

4. Assuming that there is a jury, the contract could prevent them from speaking out even if Steorn misrepresents them.

5. "Sean said". LOL. How many times has Sean had to go back and re-spin something he said in the past?

Maybe they have something, and I hope they do, but so far I have seen nothing but claims and semantic evasiveness by Steorn. One last chance Steorn, let’s see what July brings.

P.S. wasn't the jury plan supposed to SPEED the deployment of ORBO? This is looking more like a way to drag this out as long as possible.

Quanten said...

nleseul , I can tell you out of experience that it was said time and time again on randi side that they only need to know that people don't cheat in case of PMM (no hidden battery) they do not need to KNOW underlying tech. And they can just like your average jury member be asked not to reveal anything. They are not here to test to UNDERSTAND, they are ehre to test and SHOW whether a phenomenon exists or not. A challenge of demonstrating that extraodinary claim are true. Not a challenge to explain how it can work. Period.

ANYWAY , even not considering the above, IF Steorn really say they do not want to be tested by randi's organisation for fear of leak, then this pure bull. Who is more likely to leak ? Randi an old magician, or a physicist in the jury potentially understanding the application and money to be won by such tech ? You KNOW that there are country which won't extradict you for a simple NDA breakage, especially if you bring them a solution to their energy need on a silver platter ? Who cares if you can't sell your PMM gizmo to the US or ireland due to NDA / Patent breakage, as long as you can sell it to the rest of the world, or even produce energy and sell that energy...

The thougth that signing a NDA would protect them for something that big, especially if it is signed by people understanding the implication, is either naive, OR , they already know that there is nothing to be leaked out and are trying to win time.

PS: Vlan yeah PMM are patented, but only because they fall between the "crack" of the filter of the patent office, either by not mentionning PMM, or by having the luck of being looked at by somebody which does not really understand the implication (and that they do not function). But try to go tom the patent office and say you want to pantent a PMM. If you do not "camouflage" it you will be downright laughed out of the office.

ben said...

(hairykrishna)

While we're talking about shady methods of powering things: cool wireless powered lightbulb site:

http://bea.st/sight/lightbulb/