Friday, April 13, 2007

More Jury Clarifications from Sean

Today Sean cleared up lingering Jury questions. chili fries asks:

I also can't resist asking (though I understand if I don't get one) for clarification. Are they only testing the devices with Steorn's measurement apparatus? Are they building the devices for themselves? Are they building and testing the devices at their places of business, or is the validation process only taking place at Steorn in Dublin?
Sean's reply:
Well I can't in fact 'tell' the Jury what to do. They will not rely only on Steorn data, who would? They will not only do tests in Steorn, who would? I doubt that they would rely on Steorn provided systems (the ones with our hamsters in them!), who would?

This talk about the supposed 'test limits' placed on this process by Steorn is false and mis-leading. Part of someones game no doubt.
Here are some additional comments from Sean today:
I fully expect that the method of reaching their conclusions will form part of the final assessment. The only purpose of 'information control' is to allow these people to do their work, without the need to deal with media or bloggers and to allow the results, once ready, to be released in a coordinated way to the media, that simple.
In regards to how the Jury is going:
Well I guess that the first thing to understand is that our original view of the process was modified based on input from people who where applying. Basically the suggestion was that an additional phase was added to the process that in effect involved a 'peer review' of white papers, test methods and test data provide by Steorn. This will not of course be the basis of the final evaluation report but was included, by request, so that they have a very clear understanding of what the technology is about. This is reflected in the jury contract posted on the main site, part I being, in effect a form a peer review and part II being selection of independent labs (by the Jury), definitions of tests and so on.
...
The whole point about the Jury process is that it is not conducted under any form of pressure, hence we will not be in the business of predicting when, how and so on. So I guess that the best that I can say is that we will give another update at the end of Q2.
It looks like we'll be waiting a while for the next jury update. Let's hope they've made a lot of progress on phase 1 testing by then. Here's more from Sean:
We said from the outset that this would be a long and involved process, others of course have views that this could all be over in 10 mins, this was never going to be the case and we have repeatedly stated this from the very start . No credible scientist is going to throw out hundreds of years of experience in the blink of an eye. The process will be must be in-depth and run at a pace dictated by the Jury.
...
...we have no doubts about our claims - but we have never expected anyone in the public domain to believe us. The role of the Jury is to provide a deep technical analysis of our claims, at that point I will ask you to believe us. Up till then I will simply ask you to believe that we are genuine about the process.
...
Not only the people involved and the methods used to determine a result will be available, but also the details about how we came to select the 22 and so on. There is no point at all in this process if its details are not in the public domain AFTER the result. I stress after for the simple reason that while doing this, the last thing the people involved need to do is (1) deal with some of the crazy bloggers that are out there or (2) give a false or misleading impression of what is going on. As always the answer to the question we pose is far too important for all of us to allow it to be influenced by some of the very cynical bloggers or indeed the crazy ones. It really is a case that the full story will be known at the end, but it will only be known at the end.
It's been an eventful week, but my hunch are things will slow down around here before they get busy again. Sean is holding his cards close. I hope between now and Q2 we can make some progress with Dr. Mike's visit and also with crank's activities with Steorn.

28 comments:

Anonymous said...

thanks for the updates on this site. Now I can stop trying to wade though the mess on the steorn messageboard.

Anonymous said...

I have noticed a troubling pattern with Sean’s posts lately, especially today’s.

chili fries asks some specific questions and Sean answers with vague and somewhat gibberish answers. Then Sean adds this,
"This talk about the supposed 'test limits' placed on this process by Steorn is false and mis-leading. Part of someones game no doubt."

That’s not what was asked.

He skillfully avoids answering what was clearly asked, "Are they building the devices for themselves? Are they building and testing the devices at their places of business, or is the validation process only taking place at Steorn in Dublin?"

And then this,

"As always the answer to the question we pose is far too important for all of us to allow it to be influenced by some of the very cynical bloggers or indeed the crazy ones."

How in the world would a cynical or even crazy blogger somehow be an influence on the question Steorn pose? Looks like another crack at gaining some sympathy. Call the cops about the crazy-guy yet Sean?

Anonymous said...

On the 'I learned a lesson today'

ramuk:"And babcat, you need to go easy on the catholic confession style of yours. It's pathetic."



Babcat - "The truth is I know I'm pathetic and I don't care.

Orbo technology is the only thing that matters to me right now. It's more important than myself or anyone else. It's the tool that might be used to rescue this planet and allow for a world worth living in."



When I read comments like this I become very afraid for some members of the forum.

Sean, I hope you are not toying with the vulnerable......this is getting sick.

nleseul said...

I don't know why in Goddess' name you people think "There are no limits" is a vague or waffling answer to questions about what the jury is or isn't allowed to do.

Anonymous said...

So how long do you all reckon till Steorn goes "error 404"?

Anonymous said...

the comments made by Babcat are very disturbing. Some of the people on the forum seem to have invested so much "faith" in Steorn. It concerns me when I read comments like Babcat's

Anonymous said...

Steorn's site is down?

Thicket said...

Heh...

Sean says

"As always the answer to the question we pose is far too important for all of us to allow it to be influenced by some of the very cynical bloggers or indeed the crazy ones."

That's us, folks. Take a collective bow.

*Shrug*. To me it seems that we're just asking some tough, penetrating questions. A number of folks on the Steorn forums are asking similar tough questions with perhaps not quite the same bite because they'd prefer not to be banned.

Thicket said...

On the topic of Babcat. I'd strongly encourage folks NOT to take shots at him. He is the only forum member I'm concerned about.

If you look beyond the hero-worship, Babcat is a very good person. He only lashes out when defending his passionate, all-consuming beliefs about Sean and Orbo.

I sincerely hope he'll be fine.

Thicket said...

Sean said

"Orbo was initially developed as using stop-start mechanisms (with a power density of 0.5 Watts per cm3), Steorn is currently finalizing the development of constant motion system."

In a post on the Steorn forums when the July demo was first talked about, Sean confirmed this. He said he hoped to have a continuous device ready for July but that a stop/start device may have to be shown. I'd try and find that quote, but the Steorn forums are down right now.

I seldom get into questioning the Steorn technology directly, because I believe they don't have any, but this stop/start device is just too obvious to ignore.

A perpetual motion machine is a poor man's free energy machine. In perpetual motion, the device just has to keep moving (at least until the parts wear out). A free-energy device has to keep moving AND generate excess energy.

When you only have a stop/start device, there is no perpetual movement. The device has to be reset externally for every new cycle. This external intervention requires energy.

Remember the Kinetica device? It was stop/start. The final resting position of the components was different than the starting position.

If the stop/start device magnets / shafts / stuff ends up in the same position it's started, it would be trivially easy to make the motion continuous.

If the stop/start device generated excess energy, let's say by lifting a heavy weight, it would be trivially easy to convert that excess energy to make the motion continuous.

Could it be that Steorn's current start/stop device has components that end up in different positions? Does the device not mechanically generate more potential energy by, for example, lifting a weight?

Clearly, Steorn hasn't succeeded in making their device continuous. Why is that? Is there no free energy to make it happen?

Is this the reason why the Crank visit hasn't happened? Crank is not a scientist, but she's bright enough to recognize a start/stop device that needs external intervention to get going again.

Is this the reason why Dr. Mike's visit keeps getting delayed?

Is this the reason why the Jury process hasn't truly gotten off the ground yet?

Is this the reason why the end of Q1 became April 13, and when Sean couldn't delay any longer, he said nothing new?

Have the Steorn techies been unsuccessfully scrambling to make the Steorn device continuous motion?

Will the July demonstration show the same old stop/start device that doesn't demonstrate free-energy?

Anonymous said...

Hi SteornTracker,

Just a suggestion. The question of where to meet if Steorn closes their forum came up. While it is great here for comments, this blog does not really lend itself to chat and large postings. If you think it is a good idea maybe you could put a link and explanation on the fron page for those unaware that FizzX exists.

Thanks again for taking in the Steorn Orphans, you have done a great (and fair) job here.

Anonymous said...

Is it possible to find daily traffic statistics for Steorn?

My guess is that the traffic will drop to near 0 now that Sean dropped that steaming pile yesterday.


no HK visit
no crank visit
no dr. mike visit
no answers to that massive q&a that disappeared
no new info detailed, technical or specific

Does anyone really believe there will be a July demo?

Even the truly offensive believers could barely manage a dozen half-hearted insults after the let-down. I think we may have seen the last of Sean in the public forum. That or he has no shame whatsoever.

The fence is crumbling like a New Orleans dike and Sean is still on the ranch in Crawford.

Anonymous said...

Steorn 13 - "Dublin, we have a problem."

JTerry said...

Thicket, as usual, brilliant job in distilling the questions down to the bare essentials. I must note, however, that Steorn in fact said at the outset of all this that it had a working free-energy device. Sean has given several news interviews in which he confirmed this. If they have a working device, why then does Steorn spend more and more money on R&D each year? And why are they still talking about "development" of their device? Either they have one or they don't.

Another point about the jury process and really a question I have posed before but never seen a yes/no answer; Will the jury members be given for testing and personal inspection the free energy device manufactured by Steorn that Steorn has alleged itself to have? People keep sending me links to quotes on this but not a single one answers this with a yes/no; all answers on this point are ambiguous, rhetorical, or purposefully evasive. Would someone please point me to a "yes" or "no" response on this?

Anonymous said...

Anyone want to bet the Steorn lawyers are sending out letters to every blogger, demanding that quotes from the Steorn forum be deleted? This would be a sure sign of a scam to me.

Ctrl+S people. Storage is cheap and Steorn has a habit of 'disappearing' the inconvenient questions and people. (wow, now I sound like Tinfoil hat CT)

Anonymous said...

Seans back...Wearing his Spin hat again.


--------
nleseul:

Steorn:They are currently in part I of the process (an addition at the request of the applicants), this is a form of 'peer' review and is paper based. We have confirmed visit dates set for the near future, but I am not going to go into this any further for obvious reasons.



Cool, thanks for that clarification. Unfortunate that the skeptics are going to love spinning that one, though. :sad:

Have you tried generating electricity with the constant motion prototypes yet? (Since presumably it's easier than with the start/stop things.)



Steorn - "They are entitled to their views, the non-believer/believer war will not be resolved until the Jury process is complete, and for the truly crazy this will in fact be part of the scam as well. Its all noise, lol Seamus was showing me some of the comments from another forum, its pure vitriol, according to the stuff that I was shown I had already made 750k from sale of Steorn shares (I have for the record made zero from the sale of Steorn shares), there are crazy theories surrounding the Steorn Nominees thing and so on."

Vitriol?

I don't see an answer to the question but he manages to paint the skeptics as crazy. Wasn't it Sean who suggested/challenged someone to dig into the financials? If the information here is wrong, by all means post a correction.

Thicket said...

Clever use of words, Sean.

The start/stop device doesn't require 'manual' intervention. In other words, nobody puts their hand in to make something move. I buy that.

The key question is 'Does the device have to be reset externally for every new cycle?' It could anything that adds energy, not just someone's hand.

nleseul said...

Arrgh. I know you're more intelligent than that, Thicket. You're really reaching now.

In normal-people-speak, "manual" has nothing necessarily to do with hands. It's the opposite of "automatic." So assuming that Sean is speaking normal-people-speak, and not bizarro-world-Thicket-speak, "no manual intervention" means "automatic intervention." If the device's motion is maintained strictly by automatic intervention, it is perpetual motion.

Thicket said...

General Sean returns to rally the troops after yesterday's disappointments.

One item I found interesting. It appears that the Jury hasn't yet seen the Steorn device, or been to visit Steorn.

This is odd since one potential juror (physicist Jeff something) talked about maybe going to Ireland in January.

It's like someone pressed the accelerator and the car stalled... for three months.

The Jury has been studying paper-stuff? Lol. Show the Jury what you've got Sean! Don't give us any bullshit about the Jury controlling the process. It's Steorn that's controlling the process.

Anonymous said...

Thicket, the stop/start version is effectively continuous just that there is a short pause during each cycle. No manual intervention or extra energy input is required to maintain the complete cycle. The 'continuous' version just gets rid of the pauses. Both, if real, are perpetual motion machines.

Anonymous said...

If a machine becomes static (stops), how does it restart itself?

I assume by 'stop' Sean means 'complete loss of momentum'.

If a machine is completely mechanical and comes to rest, it can not suddenly start moving again.

A main component may pause, that I could buy, a completely static phase in the cycle, no way.


And I wonder why Sean didn't answer Babcat's output question?


Babcat - "Hello Sean,

Thank you for the answer.

Also, can you confirm that the 0.5 watts/cm3 is still the output AFTER the mechanical energy has been converted into electricity?"


-----------

Hi Seamus, please feed this vitriol to Sean.

Anonymous said...

"The Jury has been studying paper-stuff? Lol. Show the Jury what you've got Sean! Don't give us any bullshit about the Jury controlling the process. It's Steorn that's controlling the process."

Thicket, you've outdone yourself this time.

If Steorn was showing signs of "controlling" the process you'd say the jury was tainted.

No, scratch that, you'd say it in any case.

I repeat: their underlying assumption is that Steorn is a con.

From that, all other "logic" follows.

Don't be fooled.

This is the core content of what these hyenas discuss, their sophistry is all a front.

Thicket said...

@Anonymous

Cool. I guess that's what we should expect to see in July. No external energy and continuous motion. I'm ok if there is a pause, as long as the device restarts itself without external energy.

@Nleseul

Why am I reaching? The Kinetica device required manual intervention from a hand. It's a simple matter to automate that manual intervention, but it means nothing if there is external energy.

Anonymous said...

The kinetica device is a 3 year old half cycle test rig built by a third party and is ultimately irrelevant. The point of the kinetica video was the (well respected) engineers reaction and not the workings of the device.

Anonymous said...

"The point of the kinetica video was the (well respected) engineers reaction and not the workings of the device."

So what was the point of the (well respected-yet nameless?) engineers reaction. The same as the namless 8 scientists?

@all
Why did Sean start a 'Questions' thread, post this,
"After all the disappointment of yesterdays 'news', drop any questions in here and I will try to answer.

Sean"

And then proceed to answer nothing but fluff questions, skipping the most insightful question Babcat has ever posted?

"Also, can you confirm that the 0.5 watts/cm3 is still the output AFTER the mechanical energy has been converted into electricity?"

Anonymous said...

The kinetica device is a 3 year old half cycle test rig built by a third party and is ultimately irrelevant. The point of the kinetica video was the (well respected) engineers reaction and not the workings of the device.

@anonymous:
Why did they show it then?
Who is this well respected engineer?
Why is the reaction of the engineer playing with an irrelevant device of any importance?

Thicket said...

The fact that the Jury hasn't yet seen the Steorn device is Steorn's doing, not the doing of the Jury.

No scientist would prefer looking at paper calculations if given the chance to so see, test and analyze a working model.

The Jury process is three months late because of Steorn. It's because Steorn is controlling the process.

I don't understand the difficulty in comprehending this.

Thicket said...

Yup... the Kinetica model is old, but the video was shown in public six months ago. It wasn't free energy. It was stop/start. It required manual intervention. The end state position of components was different than the starting position. It was unremarkable.

I don't know if Steorn is a con. I do know that their device isn't free-energy.

Do you folks recall the believers speculating back in January about the Juries surprise when they saw Steorn's free-energy device? Some believers claimed that the Jury silence was evidence that the Steorn device was the real thing, because if it wasn't the Jury would have reported on it quickly.

It's ironic that the Jury hadn't actually seen the device at that time. It's completely laughable that they haven't seen it yet.

Sean is doing everything possible to drag this thing out as long as possible. Expect further delays and excuses.