Monday, April 23, 2007

Questions for Dr. Mike

First off, thank you Magnatrix for posting the contents of Sunday Times article. If you haven't read the article yet, you can see it here. There doesn't seem to be any new information in the article, just a summary of what has been going on.

Finally, I thought you might enjoy this forum thread. Dr. Mike points out what he'll attempt to do to Steorn's Orbo if they let him:

It would be really nice if I can take it apart and put it back together again, both correctly and incorrectly. If not, attaching some magnitometors and watching things change will help. Sean did say at one point (jokingly I'm sure) that I can "hit it with a hammer", so I think taking it apart and looking for hidden power sources is ok.
I really hope Dr. Mike makes it out to the July demo and gets to hammer on the Orbo. His analysis will definitely change a few minds around here, one way or the other!

25 comments:

meta said...

"STEORN, the Dublin-based company that advertised in The Economist magazine last summer for scientists to test its controversial “energy-creating” technology, has raised €14m since it was set up. Most recently it raised €8.4m to fund its energy project."

We know from their official CRO balances that they had raised a little under 6 million from 2001 to the end of 2005. So an additional 8.4 million would indeed put them at around 14 million total.

BUT all of the additional 8 million would have had to have been raised in the just the first 7 1/2 months of 2006 -if their assertion that they quit taking investments after their big public splash and establishment of "The Process" (validation) is true.

Could they have raised 2.4 million more in 7 1/2 months than the total they had raised in the previous 5 years? I suppose so, but it seems a stretch.

Also this all begs the question, where those investors investing in "OU" tech? Or something else? Could investment cash still be coming in right now, and yet their statements that they are not taking investments for "Orbo" tech still be "technically" true?

Yes that is possible but only, by definition, if there is another "project" in the background.

OR, were investments flowing in for "OU" tech the entire span of 2006? Sean says not.

This article raises more questions than it answers. In forensics cases, as time goes by, the facts tend to converge. With Steorn, just the opposite happens. Leaving all the claims of OU aside and looking at Steorn just from a business standpoint, legit or not, it is one of the oddest things I have ever seen.

Anonymous said...

It must be understood that all Steorn debunkers commit one or more of three errors:

1. They do not know the data.
2. They ignore the data.
3. They distort the data to make it conform to their explanations.

There are NO exceptions to this rule.

Anonymous said...

What data?

Terry Lingle said...

I tried the link to Dr mikes thread and got :

the requested discussion can not be found:

So either the link is incorrect or the thread has been moderated.

Can anyone provide a capture of it ?

I see 007 is blathering on again.
The lad has no concept what data are or how to evaluate them.
Terry Lingle

Anonymous said...

I'm rather disappointed that 7 and the 8s have decided to post at SteornTracker. The comments under yesterday's blog post bear an eerie resemblance to many a Steorn Forum thread. 'You debunkers are in the pay of Big Oil', etc. Although, maybe Big Oil Rep will show up here now with his robots to wage (im)mortal combat against 7 and the 8s?

Suomipoika said...

Steorn has gathered investments over €14 million. There is power behind money, and power makes pressure. I think Steorn's original plan was to gather even more investments, but they couldn't, because their present investors demanded to cut the process until "validation" (whatever that means).

Why? Because that was meant to be somekind of guarantee for investors, that they are in real business.

So Steorn had no choice. They were greed and wanted the money, so they accepted the terms. That led them to troubles, and they are playing this game ONLY to please investors. €14M is much money - They kill people for less.

Steorn tries to postpone the "validation" as far away to the future as possible, so that they get time to find a solution. BUT their investors put pressure. They are not going to let Steorn get away so easy.

Investors are getting really nervous. THEY probably forced Steorn to organize the "public demo" in July, against Steorn will. THEY forced Steorn to invite a skeptic to their lab, but luckily HK rejected their offer, and luckily they got few extra months with drmike. THEY want publicity for the process - maybe arranged the Fox/Sky News interviews, etc - while Steorn wants to keep low profile.

Their investors are their worst enemies right now, not the skeptics. Investors want to see results, but Steorn can't show any. All Steorn has to offer is words, and words after words.

The game is getting ugly.

Anonymous said...

Is it O.K to quote 007's more foolish and cotradictorie comments? Or would this be 'attack'?

JTerry said...

To another anonymous who posted:

"It must be understood that all Steorn debunkers commit one or more of three errors:

1. They do not know the data.
2. They ignore the data.
3. They distort the data to make it conform to their explanations.

There are NO exceptions to this rule."

I answer as follows:

1. No one know the data. The mouth of Sauron, Sean M., despite making wide and cocky claims of incredible magnitude threatening to up-end the fundamental fabric of modern scientific thought, refuses to provide ANY data. Should I remind anyone who, say, took a plane recently, drove a car, used a phone, etc that those are based upon modern scientific thought and not peyote induced pipe-dreams?

2. Data would not be ignored by any skeptic. But that's just it, isn't it? "Would not", not "they ignore". Notice the tense change there? Reason is because once again the mouth of Sauron chooses not to provide...etc.

3. How can data be distorted if it does not exist?

Here is what we skeptics do know, however; allow me to list:

1. The total energy of the universe remains constant despite the system applied. This reality the believers are quick to ignore and punish skeptics for citing despite repeated and credible proof of the same.

2. No cyclical process exists such that it produces no greater phenomena other than the subtraction of a positive amount of heat from a reservoir and the production of an equal amount of work; given entropy, this means you get less than what you put in. Here is another well verified reality against which the believers will battle to the end of the Earth.

3. Skeptics are aware of no efforts by unknown, shadowy forces to repress free-energy technology. How about describing which governments did so and their methodology? Skeptics are aware, however, of multiple fraud lawsuits by angered investors (for instance the Stan Meyer lawsuit) in which the defendants and proponents of free-energy scams lost horrifically.

4. Skeptics are aware that if it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck it is probably not a realian from the 18th dimension but, in fact, a duck. Steorn smells like, Sean the mouth of Sauran talks like, and all the videos/press releases/delays/broken promises/etc walk like - A SCAM. So, notwithstanding evidence to the contrary, it should be treated on the order of a scam and submitted to the closest scrutiny.

Why should it be so scrutinized? Investors be damned; we shouldn't care one bit about them if they are dumb enough to invest in this. No, not for investors, for something else; for the incredible pride and arrogance the believes exhibit in their fervor to blast any who dare question the claim. For opposition to those believers who rally against the notion that a person should be paid for his labor or his invention should it sell all the while proposing childish notions of unrealistic world harmony. For the fact that you believers insult us daily with claims of oppression, accuse our systems of government and institutions of learning of great evil, and show such disgust as you call us uneducated, uncaring, and unjust.

In the final analysis, we shall see. If the skeptics are wrong, I will be the first to proclaim my great ignorance and incredible stupidity. But if we are not, will you do the same? Of course, this assumes that there ever will be an end to it all, which seems doubtful given Steorn's track record.

Anonymous said...

*
CommentAuthor007
* CommentTime6 days ago

permalink
Why would anyone even bother looking at the SteornTracker blog? The guy who runs it seems fair enough, but it attracts all the cynical gutter trash types.

It's full of half truths and people making up supposed facts as they go along. If you ask me, it's a haven for anyone who's been banned and who has a negative opinion.

Trailer park trash.


Welcome to THe Park 007, seems we attracted you.

Anonymous said...

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40231&Focus=1400121
*
CommentAuthor007
* CommentTimeJan 18th 2007

permalink
Look, here is my stance.

I do not know that Steorn definitely have what they say. I wish I had total proof, but I don't.

I have however been here for 5 months, seen, heard, read and talked about everything in minute detail. There is unquestionably growing certainty that they are indeed telling us the truth - maybe one of you would be so good as to acknowledge this.

My confidence in their claims has been misinterpreted that I FACTUALLY know they have what they say. I don't and have never said that I know for certain. I have came close, but I HAVE NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS.

But, as each day goes by the accumulation of information is way too much for it to be SCAM/HOAX and with the jury's silence it seems increasingly unlikely that they made a mistake with the technology. It is now a growing realization that we are dealing with a reality.

I agree with Sean. It is an incredible claim that is hard for some people to accept - and if they want to remain firmly bolted to the fence then that's fine with me.
I respect all of your positions on this - especially the forum members with scientific backgrounds, it would be hard to accept.

It's the (Extreme Scepticism) that I have a problem with, and NONE of the people on this thread (so far) are in that category.

Maybe I find it easier to believe than some.

******************

Now please shut it 007.

Father Luke Duke said...

" 'You debunkers are in the pay of Big Oil', etc. Although, maybe Big Oil Rep will show up here now with his robots to wage (im)mortal combat against 7 and the 8s? "
------
Is that you there Lister?

I seem to remember that you were going to help control one of my, err, Big Oil Rep's killer robot divisions. You still up for it?

Anonymous said...

To FLD:

Sorry, no, I am not Lister. Just an anonymous lurking fan (of TheRepandThePope) from the Steorn Forum. The funniest thread I ever saw at Steorn was Cardiff's pedal bike. But TheRepandThePope were a constant source of real humor to combat 7 and the 8s juvenile idiocy.

meta said...

It must be understood that all Steorn true believers commit one or more of three errors:

1. They do not know the data.
2. They ignore the data.
3. They distort the absence of data to make it conform to their ignorance of science.

There are NO exceptions to this rule.

Anonymous said...

http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=30981&page=3

Forget about logic peeps.
Not gonna help.
Tiak did the best, look what happens.

* Tiak
* CommentTimeDec 12th 2006 edited

permalink

007:
You just don't get it do you? With these facts alone - NO ONE EVEN NEEDS TO SEE A WORKING DEVICE. The fact a global company is producing product is proof by itself.

Now, I expect people to be skeptical, but your's is a brand of irrational skepticism that smacks of debunker.



You see, you claim logic, but you're blind to actually being open to possibilities.... The notion that no one needs to see a working device, is ridiculous. Large companies are just as capable of making mistakes as anyone else, and honestly, large companies can afford much easier to invest in/work with a smaller company just IN CASE something works. Hell, now 'adays thats basicly how dot coms work, websites with an idea that they think could be cool go around and ask rich people/companies for millions of dollars, these investors spend those millions of dollars often without any way of knowing they could gain any proffit from said investment or a working business model... For example Youtube has yet to produce any profit, and are their hosting costs more than any other site on the internet, and yet, they garner near-limitless funding.

Here's another example for you, my mother's tiny biotech division was recently bought -BY A GLOBAL COMPANY- because said global company wanted to get into the market of Hepatitus testing (I believe it was hep at least, my memory of what she's doing is kind of shaky). The catch is, they don't have a working, developed product, they just happen to be working on one, and yet this global company spends a large sum of money on this purchase...

Or, for yet another example, a great many people have already purchased their moller skycar, and they've receieved a great deal of investment. They are a real company, with real, extremely rich investors, possibly even large companies, with a real experienced body of employees, with a real workplace you can drop in for a tour of at designated times, and are really producing engines and cars that can hover. The catch is, they don't actually have a real working flying car (at least not in the manner they intend to have one), and as such have no actual product to market, despite millions in research.

Here are some other facts you seem to have overlooked:

1. It is entirely possible that some degredation of materials occurs that hasn't been sufficiently looked into. Maybe it's only detectable after running a machine for a long period of time, maybe it weakens the earth's magnetic field and could prove harmful in the long run. While your logic dictates that there is inded a device of some sort, there is nothing to say that it works completely as described in the long run and is feasible for widespread use.

2. There have been MANY false claims for OU before, thousands, this alone weakens your logic, as paterns are the main means through which man kind understands the world. And if 32,847 times, dropping something leads to it falling to the ground, even if someone really really smart tells you it'll shoot off into outer space the 32,858th time, human nature would be to disbelieve this. As the pencil has yet to be released, I doubt it's appropriate to alert NASA.

3. Even Sean recommends no one believe the claim until validation. He says this, because, honestly, we don't have any real evidence of the claims at this point, and he admits that to anyone with any background involving engineering the claim should at first seem ridiculous. He also admits that he likely wouldn't believe it were he not involved in it... S0 with these assertions towards "debunkers" you're also attacking the aspect of the company that has been friendliest to the community.

Does it still feel like such unavoidable logic?...

Anonymous said...

I find some of he comments that seem to indicate that somehow it is irrational to be skeptical of a claim hilarious! Steorn has made an extraordinary claim without ANY data to support their claim. Claiming to have discovered a device (…or process) that violates the first law of thermodynamics is beyond extraordinary, it’s outrageous.

Steorn has offered no evidence to support their claim...nothing. If someone stood up and said cows can now fly without the use of any artificial aid, but showed no film of flying cows, no data on flying cows, no evidence what so ever as to how cows can now fly, we’d laugh at them. If they said they could generate living fish from boiled water, we’d laugh at them. If they said they could truly create a rabbit out of a hat, we’d laugh at them. Saying that they can make energy from…NOTHING…is equally preposterous. Their claim requires evidence, in fact, it requires a lot of evidence…but to date they have given none.

To be skeptical of Steorn’s claim is the only RATIONAL position to take. Believing in Steorn’s claim is irrational. I would have to say that only fantasy prone people could even begin to believe Steorn at this point.

15-India-Street said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

IF Steorn goes public that they were doing a movie about gullible, Uneducated populations that believe anything.. The believers will be looking for a rock to
crawl under.

Sean has been consistent about One point. that's it. That Point is: " DO NOT BELIEVE ME"

and yet the believers believe. IT would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Suomipoika said...

That's right 15-India-Street!

Usually funding means promise for money flow, if certain conditions are met. Money is not transferred to Steorn bank accounts by snapping fingers. They must work hard for every cent, and show some progress.

That raises another question. They state at their website, that "...during the process of validation we would seek no further funding."

*SEEK* no further funding could mean they are not SEEKING investors - instead they ask money from their present investors. So, they ARE after all sucking their investors pockets all the time!

drmike said...

I was one who wanted to a robot master!! Looks like I succeeded.

I've not hear one word boo since last week. I thought Steorn were going to arrange tickets and a hotel room, but nothing has been said.

I've talked to a couple of people using wispers about ways to measure the thing, and have received no comments about that either.

It is interesting to me that the divide between skeptics and believers is widening. Like anyone with a scientific background, I am exceptionally skeptical. As time goes on, I become more so. Comments from the SPDC side seem to show people are still accepting the delays heartily.

If nothing else Steorn has made me think hard about why I believe science. Reading quantum field theory and seeing the assumptions as _assumptions_ really helps. If we change the assumptions we can get a different theory. How would it hold up to experiment??

The last question is the key to science. When we can predict the future based on what we know, and we can do it every time, we have a clue. The experiment is the proof.

It's Steorn's move. And the world is watching.

Anonymous said...

drmike

pretty soon Sean is going to a stage a loud public fight with you and ban you from the forum.

The probability of that is far higher than you getting to see anything.

Anonymous said...

The gap between sceptics and believers is in a way really a gap between world views. The science world and the science fiction world. The science fiction world appears to be pretty well inhabited, while before Steorn I never even knew it existed. In the science fiction world amazing things are possible: free energy and anti-gravity exist, and anything with a flux vector and a couple of rare earths can travel to other stars.

The problem is that the science fiction-world makes use of all kinds of words they borrow from science. The way these words are used has nothing to do with what they actually mean in science. But because they are the same words, science-fictionites think that what they say actually has scientific meaning. It would be nice if these people could stop using words like energy, flux or frequency. Or at least accept they use a different belief system to give meaning to the world. And accept the consequence: the way they understand the world doesn't allow the technological advances science does allow.

Anonymous said...

For those of you interested enough to toss around theories on this blog: If the Steorn saga is so concerning, why didn't you join up with the developer's group when that option was available?

As if participating would somehow result in having less information?

Anonymous said...

I think the boys at Steorn made a mistake. Some deep pocket investors invested with them based on an error and in order to keep them happy or follow some timeline Steorn created this elaborate PR campaign. Sean may have been telling the truth when he said they weren’t seeking additional funding because they already had the investors on the hook. In addition, it is a fallacy to assume wealthy investors wouldn’t be stupid. I work in the financial world and wealthy individuals come to me all the time asking advice about slick, but idiotic and outlandish, investment schemes. Some fall for it hook, line and sinker before I can talk some sense into them. The more outlandish the scheme the more they believe. Even the wealthy believe you can get something for nothing. Steorn has developed a slick PR campaign; I think they did this for their investors. Perhaps it was an honest mistake; in any case, my guess is it is going to end badly for Steorn and their investors.

If they had a device, they would have taken it to market already. Most of the great inventions of in history never went through peer review BEFORE they where unveiled to the public. The Wright Brothers didn’t…they just flew their plane. Bell showed the world the voice phone. They are going to draw this out as long as possible because they have to.

Let’s face facts. A simple mechanical watch type mechanism if constructed in the correct way might look like a perpetual motion machine to an untrained eye. No, Steorn may not be a fraud, but I would bet the farm that they do not have an OU device.

Those that believe are demonstrating an almost religious zeal for Steorn. They want so badly to believe that OU exists that they seem to have abandoned all reason.

ben said...

"why didn't you join up with the developer's group when that option was available"

Legal contract with people i don't trust, for no gain. A physics teaching group run by a 'free energy' company is still one of the funniest concepts I have ever come across.

15-India-Street said...
This comment has been removed by the author.