Thursday, July 12, 2007

Dr. Mike's Report

I just got done reading Dr. Mikes full report. You can read it here:
http://www.eskimo.com/~eresrch/Steorn/final_report.text

The report reiterates what we've all read about Dr. Mike's trip. I think the main point worth noting is that Dr. Mike does not believe that Steorn is a scam or a hoax, that they really believe what they have. Unfortunately, he cannot go into details about the tech because of his NDA.

35 comments:

zpe said...

drmike was much kinder here and reflects what I've believed all along. Steorn thinks they have something on paper but they are wrong. Maybe they are hoping the jury or SPUD club can develope it.

Anonymous said...

So we waited months and months for a page and a half about what the flight over, meeting some woman on a train, and museums and pubs Dr Mike visited.

You'll excuse me If I feel disappointed. What a joke.

Adam said...

Very interesting read. I was hoping Dr. Mike would go into more detail, but it appears the NDA prevents him from doing so.

The interesting issue, is that if this isn't a con, then what has Steorn been doing all this time? Was this demo supposed to be the first time they put their theory into practice? (I can't imagine anyone being that brazen).

If this was real, I'd wager that there is some flaw in the scientific model that allows it to work, but judging by Mike's tone in the paper, I'd guess there's several levels why this is flawed. I could understand one person becoming deluded into believing this would work (it happens all the time), but Steorn supposedly has 20 employees. Surely someone there wouldn't have put up for it as long as this supposedly has been going on. Although it's possible only a small subset of the employees actually understand how everything is *supposed* to work. Still, you'd think one of their engineers would realize that after getting nothing working all this time they'd realize they have it figured wrong.

Again, this whole thing is surreal. If Steorn really did have something there's no way they could have botched the demo that badly, but then why even do it in the first place?


I know I've been seeing people say thanks here several times, but I'd just like to drop my own personal thanks to Steorntracker for this blog. Before this the only way I was getting info was through wikipedia updates.

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute - Dr Mike's report is just exactly what Eric Ash said. I hope Dr Mike is not supressing what he truly thinks in order to keep his science pals on side?

Anonymous said...

At least we now know from an independent source that Steorn is not a hoax or a lie. Thanks Dr Mike!

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr Mike,

I don't think it's possible for a company of 20 people to ALL be delusional for 3 years.

That's more of a wild claim than even perpetual motion.

Anonymous said...

I've really enjoyed this. I never thought that the CoE violation was real, but I have to admit I hoped it was real. It's the same hope I find myself falling for on those rare occasions I buy a lotto ticket, I hope I win but I know I won't. That's what Steorn has been for me. I am sad to think it is all going away. I wish that the forum could somehow keep going, but I know it won't.

I wonder when it will all come crashing down. My guess is that we won't see the new year with Steorn still in existance.

h0bb1t said...

I think it is unconcious guilt that stops Dr Mike from calling this thing a true name. Guilt for receiving flight and accomodation.

But nothing wrong there (the guilt I mean), cause it just tells how honest and kind this guy is.

Dr. Mike, thanks for your efforts, you are a good man!

Douglas Kastle said...

Interesting report, but it ends up saying a lot about saying nothing.

Obviously you have covered it in the previous post but it is interesting that Steorn would pay so much to get drmike there and then let him leave without showing him anything concrete.

Anonymous said...

The interesting issue, is that if this isn't a con...

Hmm, what do you mean by the word "con"?

Because it means two things, one that most people think it means and what it actually means.

Most people think it means "connive", that they have been or are being tricked by a conniver. That is not what it means!

What it really means is "confidence" which is a special way of conniving. A con man is not just a conniving man, but a confidence man. Well what does that mean? Few people really know! And because people don't know they don't know how to detect or protect themselves from a real con; therefore, people are generally quite susceptible.

One person who has made a career out of understanding and demonstrating "confidence" tricks is Derren Brown.

Check out these two videos for demonstrations:

1. The Russian scam:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwthqRJ1Khg

2. The Dog Track:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=II_-QcW4Q4I

There are corollary videos that explain what is going on. The main elements are always the same (and by no means am I an expert): isolate a susceptible person or group (us); fascinate the person or group by breaking a pattern by speaking quickly or shaking hands oddly or using odd language; make the confidence trick. The dog track video is especially good as Derren tries to have an ordinary person perform the confidence trick without even knowing it. It didn't quite work, but it could easily have.

You walk away from this wondering just how easy it is to do a confidence scam and how many you have been swindled by. So to summarize; yes, Steorn is a confidence scam. And once you break the spell that Sean has over you, and see and understand that he does not have the answers and does not know what he's doing, only then can you be free of this hypnosis. It gets harder the more you have invested in the scam, whether money or time or effort in defending them; but when you break the spell the mist clears, and you see ah-ha! I have been tricked.

ben said...

Derren Brown's just a magician. He's just got updated patter where, rather than claiming supernatural powers, he attributes his tricks to psychological manipulation.
Some of his tricks (normally his card ones or 'packet tricks') make this obvious.

drmikes report left me with the impression that they basically didn't show him anything. Hence the minimal content. Can’t really complain – it’s not his fault!

drmike said...

"Anonymous said...

Dear Dr Mike,

I don't think it's possible for a company of 20 people to ALL be delusional for 3 years.

That's more of a wild claim than even perpetual motion. "

Bush and Cheney have deluded 100 million people for 5 years with an invasion into Iraq. It is only now falling apart. All the facts have always been there, but nobody really wanted to pay any attention.

Deluding 20 people for 3 years is piece of cake in comparison.

Anonymous said...

I have absolute proof that Steorn is a scam: this is irrefutable and is the final word on the subject.

It goes like this: IF Steorn has a method of creating free energy, THEN they would build a machine to produce the energy which they would sell. The money would pay back the cost of building the first machine and then would finance the construction of another one. With two machines, double the free cash flow would be coming in. Repeat indefinitely. The effect is exponential; therefore, it makes no difference how small a scale you start at; within 3 years you would be a multi-billionaire challenging the entire middle east in power and wealth. Steorn discovered this effect in 2003 and yet has nothing to show? That is because they have nothing to show.

(The Jester once performed a good deed to the King, who told him to name his reward; the Jester asked for nothing but a little bit of rice each day for a month, starting with a single grain on the first day and doubling each day for the whole month; that is, 2 grains the second day, 4 grains the third day, etc. The king agreed to the deal, but was forced to cancel the scheme within a short number of days because the King would have owed the Jester more rice than the entire Kingdom possessed, it being that 2^30 is more than a trillion grains of rice; the King had the Jester executed for tricking him).

Oh, look up "confidence trick" on Wikipedia, it is illuminating.

maryyugo said...

People have a lot of trouble saying "I don't know". Dr. Mike said he thought Steorn wasn't a hoax or a scam but rather a delusion. If true, that's faint comfort to those who thought we were on the verge of energy independence and to those who invested in it. It's also Dr. Mike's carefully considered opinion but that doesn't rule out fraud or hoax.

This is all Dr. Mike could say without violating his NDA:

"Lister:@DrMike,
in the report are there any test results that are supposedly a test of a working OU device ? Is it a case of tests having been done and the results having been misinterpreted at all or is it a case that no such test has actually been documented (in the report you got) ?

=========
No test of a working OU device, it was supposed to be proof of a principle. I do think it is misinterpretation. Real data is taken and presented in the report. There is a leap somewhere between the real data and the words from Steorn about OU. Exactly where that leap takes place I can't tell you - but obviously Steorn believes OU is possible."

That's quite enough. I'd only suggest modifying it to read "obviously Steorn SEEMS TO believe OU is possible". Maybe they do or maybe someone thought that the claim was a clever way to scam. We don't know.

What is sure is that their press releases, responses to forum questions, and Sean's famous interviews and quarterly reports are highly and deliberately misleading. They suggest that Steorn has actually made and tested some sort of start-stop or continuous OU device. In fact, nobody has EVER reported seeing one and none has EVER been produced for anyone to see who was allowed to confirm its existence. Just as damning, in all those slick (some would say slimy) videos Steorn produced, not a one showed an OU device. The excuse that showing the device would reveal how it works is completely bogus. You can hide the essential parts in a video if you choose. The best conclusion one can come to from the evidence, including the non-demo, and that they showed Dr. Mike nothing of value, is that Steorn has never made an actual OU device.

I'd say that's a pretty suspicious modus operandi. Suspicious for hoax or fraud as well as self delusion.

Ah well, we'll see what happens as soon as the Steorn Leprechaun decides to schedule another demo. If he ever does.

vox_causa said...

Dr. Mike,
Do you think the contract in place with the manufacturer for the orbo toy is in his head, or is there a verifiable contract? If so, what are they building? This company wouldn't waste their time building an OU toy that could never work. Or would they?

Anonymous said...

New Economist article slating Steorn

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9494346

Magnatrix said...

Anyone see the Economist article today?
I know all of you cynics will love it.

Anonymous said...

What is "slating", who are you and why do you use this word here? I ask very pointedly because the offhand use of nonsense words is one deliberate technique that Derren Brown uses to great effect to create or maintain a state of hypnosis or fascination. I have noticed this on several occasions with some of the anonymous posts here and wonder if you are not actually Sean or some other Steorn apologist.

For example, look on You Tube again for Derren's video about the BMX bike and how easy it is to make someone believe what you want them to believe, and how he did it using some nonsense words.

maryyugo said...

Hi Magnatrix,

"Anyone see the Economist article today? I know all of you cynics will love it. "

Thanks for the reference-- it's a pretty mild and factual article, actually.

Since when are people who doubt fantastic claims presented without evidence considered "cynics"? Realists would be more like it and those who believe Steorn are best referred to as "gullibles".

ben said...

Please, I say again, Derren Brown is just a magician. Don't fall for all that psychological manipulation guff. There are far more mundane explanations. I'm not saying he's bad – far from it. He is an excellent performer.

Also - don't be paranoid! I believe you may be mistaking English slang for 'nonsense words'. 'Slating' means 'talking about in a disparaging way' and is a perfectly normal phrase.

Einstern said...

I would say: GAME OVER!

Sean McCarthy wasn't the first, and will not be the last.

maryyugo said...

"Anonymous said...
So we waited months and months for a page and a half about what the flight over, meeting some woman on a train, and museums and pubs Dr Mike visited.

You'll excuse me If I feel disappointed. What a joke."



Hi Anonymous,

Not sure who you're upset with here. Dr. Mike was promised TWO DAYS "with a screwdriver" to study Steorn's technology. Not only did that not happen but he wasn't shown anything at all which demonstrated any OU or even suggested that OU is possible. He gave Steorn every opportunity to invite him to Dublin, show him a working device, show him blueprints, in fact to do anything they wanted to in order to convince him. They didn't do a thing. What more would like him to have said? Whose fault is it the report is brief and contains no information about Steorn's alleged technology?

drmike said...

@vox_causa

I don't know. My feeling is that it is in his head. It could be there is a company that Steorn has a contract with, but they have not yet told them what to build. Who knows?

Anonymous said...

Well "slating" is a highly unconventional word and anybody is correct to be suspicious that it is being used in precisely the fashion I mention; to baffle and to fascinate for the purpose of fraud.

Also you commit an error in logic by saying to disregard Derren Brown as he is just a magician, the same type of mistake as shooting the messenger as punishment for the message. It matters not who the person is who commits confidence tricks, or for what purpose. The point is, by using simple confidence tricks anybody can make people do and believe incredible things. The video links are provided just to demonstrate to any interested person that yes, confidence tricks are real, and are potentially really powerful and dangerous, and are thus a perfectly valid explanation for Sean and Steorn.

Consider this: I present to you some true videos of someone demonstrating how powerful and potentially dangerous a malicious confidence trickster could be, so you say disregard it for some non-reason.

Yet Steorn admits they have no videos or demo machines for something which is scientifically proven to be impossible anyway, yet they ask us to suspend our disbelief while they sell their story to gullible investors (the marks; the true target and purpose of this whole sad story).

Do you see some problem with this scenario? Some people really are as stupid (susceptible, naive, ignorant, greedy, manipulable) as you think (know) they are, but hopefully enough of us shouting and proving that Steorn is a sham will help people break out of the mind control that Sean has put them under. Yes, it is that sinister and diabolical.

Incidentally Kinetica is moving out now, check it out:

After a hugely successful year at London's Spitalfields market, Kinetica's tenure is coming to an end this week. Over the forthcoming year the museum will become truly kinetic with a series of exhibitions around the globe.

The first exhibition will be at 100% Design held in Earls Court in September 2007. We will also be representing the UK at the Universal Forum of Cultures in Monterrey, Mexico from September-December 2007.

To celebrate the success of Kinetica at Spitalfields and to thank you for your support and participation so far we would like to invite you to join us for a drink this Sunday afternoon (15th July) in our upper gallery between 3-6 pm.

Hope to see you there!

RSVP info@kinetica-museum.org



Bye bye Kinetica, it was nice to know ya :)
How fast will Steorn vanish? I predict overnight, pretty soon now.

Anonymous said...

Oh here's a link to that BMX video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4PFSkv4Qwc


Amazing how powerful a skilled confidence trickster can be. And that's really all the video is a demonstration of, some manipulation of what a person believes with a simple confidence trick. So are you still sure Sean has a magic perpetual motion machine now? It kind of doesn't make sense any more does it, in fact, now that you think about it, you don't really know why you believed in it in the first place!

Toiz said...

There are two things that I find really off about Sean.

1) He has said they have built devices that once started continue to run indefinitely. After the failed demo he stated the longest they ever ran a device non-stop in their lab was two weeks. Did anyone else hear that? That doesn't sound like indefinitely to me.

2) Sean wouldn't answer the question by pcstru4 on how many devices they have that demostrate OU. Could he be questioning now whether their devices are OU (or know they never where)?

Anonymous said...

I don't have an account on Steorn's forum, but once again someone has trotted out the 'time variant transaction' crap about magnetic lag. They have bought Sean's bullshit when HK would not. Moving magnets together at speed x and producing lag y, and then moving them together at speed 2x and producing lag y/2 (I know, not accurate and a gross simplification- but the unobfuscated gist of Sean's bull) does not represent a time variance w/respect to Neother's Theorem.

A time variance which would disprove CoE is more on the order of this: move them together at speed x and receive lag y today, move them together at speed x and receive lag y/2 tomorrow.

Sean is not deluded. He comes up with crap like this to fool the ignorant.

Thicket said...

Yeah, I think this is close to the end of the line for Steorn. There's no device, no functioning jury and vague hints of future demonstrations that won't happen.

They'll fade away as another footnote in the long history of perpetual motion myths.

Some nutters will continue to believe but will also move on when nothing much happens.

Perhaps Steorn will be able to convince some more really stupid investors, but the recent publicity should dry that up.

Maybe there'll be some legal challenges, but history has shown that most perpetual motion investors are too embarrassed by their own stupidity to put themselves up for public ridicule. There's also not much to be gained when the money has been spent by Steorn.

I hope I'm wrong. There's been some very entertaining events and it would be great if there were more. I've certainly learned lots about people, especially believer delusion, gullibility and naivite. I've learned about the huge difference between intelligence and wisdom.

I'll continue to follow Steorn, if there's anything to follow.

ben said...

@the derren brown related anonymous (please people, adopt a handle - it makes conversation easier!)

Confidence tricks are (obviously) real and con men can be dangerous. It is possible to get people to do and say all sorts of crazy things. I wasn't trying to deny this, sorry for any confusion!
What I was saying about Derren Brown was that his big spiel about 'programming' people, essentially, with out of context words, slight touches and body language is nonsense. That's pretty much his big con - his act is a normal 'mentallist' act with some window dressing (and a damn fine act it is too).

For info on techniques that real con men use a better source is 'the real hustle'. It's not the best program ever made but it has some nice info. Lots available on google video -just do a search.

@the noethers theorum anon

Quite correct. I'm pretty sure that Sean doesn't understand what he's talking about most of the time and just throws out stuff he has heard/skim read/made up to lend credibility.
He never really explains what he is getting at either - he lets people interpret ad extrapolate from the vaguest hints. Your viscosity explanation/simplification is an ideal example - he would never present such an argument because it is easy to understand and pick holes in.

Anonymous said...

OPEN LETTER TO THIS COMMUNITY AND STEORN:

What we as a community can do to force Steorn to show their hand and reveal all there is/isnt to know about their OU technology?

We all are tired of playing these games like "SPDC and the lucky seven", "public demo", "jury update". All games are fun for a while but too much is just too much.

What if everyone just stopped visiting their forums, SPDC etc? Maybe the sudden silence would force Steorn to take some action. All these sceptics, believers and "fence sitters" actually help keeping the illusion alive by flocking around Steorn. Steorn does not HAVE TO do anything - just throw the community a bone once in a while and everyone here just mindlessly rushes to debate/whatever around it.

Steorn has stated from the beginning that they eventually intend to relatively openly share their alleged technology to anyone interested. Exactly when is this going to happen? "After the validation?" -oh yeah. Lets think about that for a moment.

I really do understand the need for independent scientific validation if you are claiming to "break the laws of physics" - no doubt about it. But if you REALLY REALLY have that technology and it REALLY works it does not matter if you publish your findings before the scientific validation is complete. If you are a scientist it might matter (that pesky credibility thing) but if you are a company trying to make living for your employees and investors it doesnt. If you have the claimed revolutionary technology the money trucks are coming your way no matter what you do. Scientific validation does not change that fact.

So again - lets stop playing games. We all are really tired of them already.

Validation does not change the business facts and Steorn should know it. I personally give Steorn ONE MONTH to come up with something that sparks up the public interest and their credibility. I invite all of you sceptics and believers alike to join me on this demand. Believe me - its in your best interest too.


--
Oh, and thank you Dr. Mike for your nice report.

Thicket said...

It's funny how some folks extrapolate Sean's possible delusions, to all of Steorn needing to be disillusioned for there to be no over-unity devices.

These folks have clearly never worked in a small company. The leader sets the culture, especially if he is as convincing and charismatic as Sean. The rest follow, and they're financially compensated for following. Sean probably hired the Steorn employees, and would naturally pick folks who are impressed with his approach. The company becomes a communal group-think.

There are numerous examples of free-energy scam companies with employees. Sometimes the scam is 'outed' by an employee who finally figures out that it's a scam.

Heck, some of the world's most charismatic leaders have been loonies.

I sometimes wonder whether Steorn employees avoid the forums because they are embarrassed to be identified with such a loony enterprise.

Anonymous said...

I personally give Steorn ONE MONTH to come up with something that sparks up the public interest and their credibility...

Or..... ?
Come on, you can't give an ultimatum without at least an implied consequence.

Is it, or else.. you won't pay attention to them any more? We already know that's not true; you're hooked, baby!

Hooked on Steorn, sigh.. tough to come off of it (speaking for myself now). It doesn't give the same buzz any more, the same euphoria. Now it only gives, I guess a sense of despair or perhaps of forfeit. It will be nice to hear about the police raid, the short news story of how the office was vacated overnight and all the staff showed up the next day to find the doors permanently locked.

Sean where are you anyway? Have you skipped town yet? You know you can post to the forums from anywhere in the world and could set it up so nobody could track you down. Does that sound like an attractive thought?

Frank Grimer said...

Anonymous said...

"Yes, it is that sinister and diabolical"

I agree. It is the reason I deliberately broke my NDA - to warn the other members of the SPDC what they were getting into.

Anonymous said...

Regarding Derren Brown: YES this person is a performer. But the video is of him going to a dog track, taking a losing ticket, walking up to a ticket booth, and within seconds cashing it in. And doing it repeatedly, and not only that, but also nearly succeeding in having an ordinary person unwittingly perform the same scam.

I don't care what you want to call it, whether mentalism or magic or whatever. The label that you want to attach to it is completely irrelevant. The guy STOLE REAL MONEY ON CAMERA, within seconds, using a "confidence man" technique. It makes no difference why he did it (to make a show). It makes no difference how he did it. It makes no difference who he is even or whether or not you enjoy the show. Who gives a crap when people are getting ripped off royally by Steorn?

The point I am driving at here is that confidence tricksters can lull you in easily and within mere moments, get you all fired up and next thing you know you have had your money stolen. And in response to your pronouncement, NO, it is NOT LEGAL TO STEAL MONEY USING CONFIDENCE TECHNIQUES.

Sean and Steorn are a confidence scam. They are not magicians, they are not mentalists, they are not on TV. It makes no difference because that part of the equation is not relevant. However, they are stealing money with the phoney Orbo device. My old man told me once, if you can't figure out what somebody is doing, just look for the money. Where is the money in Orbo? The money comes from the investors. That's why people here are concentrating so hard on who invested how much money into what, when. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors, it is all part of the illusion, it is all provided as a distraction or an enticement.

The only thing that is important is: don't give any money to Steorn or to Sean; and if you have ever "invested" any money with this lot, you had better get moving to try to get it back again FAST.

Anonymous said...

not being an intentional hoax/fraud doesn't make it any less of a hoax/fraud