Friday, July 6, 2007

SPDC Fall Out

Frank Grimer, a former SPDC member as of today, had a falling out with Steorn due to the botched demo. It all started with this comment from Grimer:

The faithful have been told not to post on this forum until the demo starts. I regard the 6pm time when it was supposed to start as a virtual start (bit like virtual particles) and therefore I have been posting ever since. At the very outset of this forum I suggested that people were gutless for not using their own names and hiding behind pseudonyms. I was heavily criticised for that attitude but it would seem that I am being proved correct.

The SPUD group are hiding behind their NDAs.
I'm not sure what to think of Steorn asking the SPDC members not to comment on the forum. This probably was to protect the SPDC from accidentally leaking additional information that they were given about the demo. We now know the leak over on Steorn's Orbo was 100% dead on.

Grimer's melt down continued:
It would seem that the only thing that's going to get broken round here is my NDA.

And what are Steorn going to do about it? Sue me? You are having a laugh. :bigsmile:
...
To sue me they would have to produce their perpetual motion machine in court to prove to the judge that they weren't lying. I can't see the judge being very impressed if the present performance is any guide. Piss-up and brewery springs to mind. :wink:

That would be an interesting court case to track. A cryptic Irish free energy company vs. an NDA melt down.

At some point in the discussion, Grimer posted a thread from the SPDC forum into Steorn's open public forum. crank removed the post, primarily due to the fact that it contained SPDC members names. Also, Grimer may be auctioning his NDA paperwork off on E-Bay and donating the money to African children.

Now Grimer is convinced that Steorn is some kind of cult. His guess is as good as any at the moment.

I think all of this highlights an important point. Don't sign an NDA with a company that has the possibily of being fraudulent or a cult. From Steorn's perspective, don't have 200+ people sign an NDA and expect them to keep your secrets. Clearly any information up to now in the SPDC is most likely leaked, and now I doubt Steorn will share any additional sensitive information with this group.

If Steorn is up to separating out the believers from the rest of us, I think this whole debacle did a pretty good job of it.

36 comments:

Anonymous said...

I really don't see how this can be thought of as a botched demo. I've experienced botched demos and this goes WAY beyond that. Here are just a few of the points.

1. With botched demos people's stress levels go up, you see them running around, burning the midnight oil etc. I was at Kinetica from 7:30 am on Thursday expecting a queue after the article in the London Metro. Nobody from Steorn was there even trying to fix the device. When they arrived they were surprisingly calm. I spoke to them. In a real botched demo situation their stress levels would have gone through the roof.

2. If they are sincere (not necessarily correct) they must have video of their device working. It would be unreasonable to believe that a video or several did not exist. In the situation of a botched demo they would release this on YouTube immediately in order to limit the damage. A release in several more weeks will look like a fake expressly knocked up for that purpose.

3. There was no back up device of any kind and no attempt to get a device flown over from Ireland (a 1 hour flight). Again in the sitation of a botch demo all stops would have been pulled out to retain credibility.

My personal view is that the level of botch we have witnessed in the last few days goes beyond anything a commercial enterprise would be capable of. Not even Dilbert's company could screw things up that badly. I am not joking here, I am deadly serious.

There is more to come from this and Frank's comments above about a cult don't seem unreasonable to me.

Anonymous said...

Grimer just leaked that one of the spud members in florida built something that ran for 8 hours.

This will probably get deleted from that forum soon.

bc said...

IANAL, but I think signing an NDA with a cult or a fraud is perfectly worthless. I understand that breaking an NDA leads to a civil suit for damages. The plaintiff would have to show that there was damage (typically financial) from the disclosure. For a cult or fraud it would be very hard to show damage was caused, and it is pretty unlikely that the plaintiff even wants to show up in court. Of course, they can still tie you up with legal wrangling.

Therefore I think that signing an NDA with a cult or fraud is very nearly worthless piece of paper. Signing NDAs with 200 random people borders on "disclosure" which might prejudice a patent application. It's a good way to get a bunch of unquestioning disciples in your pocket though.

Frank Grimer's "gamma atmosphere"? What nonsense. He has some crazy science theories himself, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt!

JTerry said...

Dr. Mike posted the following at approximately 0534 hrs EST:

"Kent, this was way more than a glitch.

Sean bought all who wanted as much Guinness as we could hold (and then some - I was pissed in the british sense last night!) and we talked physics from about 5pm until 10pm when I left. As the night wore on, you could tell the pressure was actually getting to him.

I'm going back to Kinetica in a few minutes (it'll take 40 minutes to get there) to see what I can. I'll post again in several hours.

I think skeptical is a better attitude than cynical. See ya later.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike"

Interesting, huh? More than a glitch, eh? Like maybe, hmm, the law of physics intervened?

Anonymous said...

Grimer also said,
"I think they may have enough for a cult - not enough for commercial exploitation.
Executive toys, yes. Scientific discovery of a new energy source using magnets, yes."

Interesting.

Anonymous said...

The deliberate incompetence was too obvious this time. I've asked to be removed from the Steorn Forum. No need to add any more to that story. It was fun and I enjoyed the discourse. Now it's time to chase other clouds!


Windplay

Anonymous said...

Has Dr. Mike went to the dark side? He is in London hanging out with Steorn and Sean and has not provided any information about the demo.
I thought the point of his visit was to get a full report on ORBO.
Now I wonder if he is being swayed by Steorn to paint a better picture of ORBO than is real.
Please, Dr. Mike, give us an honest update abot ORBO!!!!

15-India-Street said...

The emperor has no clothes.
http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?t=231

Kevin said...

1st thing about cults, you should be careful around them. Scientology exists today mainly because of the vigorousness with which it pursues its lawsuits. In fact there is an excellent true story of how it beat the IRS.

http://snipurl.com/1ny0x

Somebody said something about Steorn staging the event to sequester a group of believers. The truth is, Steorn does not need believers so much as it needs an audience. We are that audience, and we have been separated from the rest of the world already. How so? You see, anybody interested enough to follow up this story on the internet (say) is already susceptible enough to be a ready mark. It isn't that we believe anything necessarily, but that we are prepared to suspend our disbelief for the long haul while they put on this show, and a show it really is. They have to put something out every little while in order to keep us interested enough to persist. But it is certainly true that as long as we persist in watching, they will persist in their show. And we will readily recruit new marks ("Hey Jane, take a look at these crazy people...." isn't this exactly what you did?)

Luckily, ultimately it is *us* who have the power to escape from Steorn's "cult" by simply deciding not to be susceptible any more; by deliberately losing interest and resuming a normal life.

Thanks much guys, was an interesting week or so, but I'm gone now. I hope you all choose to leave Steorn behind also.

Anonymous said...

Frank had an insane meltdown before. He claimed he had some info from a Czech guy or something that proved Steorn were up to something very nefarious. Frank posted his personal phone number on the forum and demanded everyone call him to prove they were not in cahoots with Steorn.

Do a forum search for the username "Feynman" to see Frank at his most insane.

Anonymous said...

DrMike: I am posting from kinetica right now. There are many spudders up stairs trying to get something to work. I will report what I can when I have a bit more time.

There are many people who want to help. Only a couple are as skeptical as I am.


---
"There are many spudders up stairs trying to get something to work"

If it worked the first time like Sean claims, I would think that letting a bunch of amatures play around trying to get it to work is rediculous.

Did someone throw out the plans for the original? Build a new one. Sean says (*roaring laughter from the penut gallery*)that they built the original one in three days. This just keeps getting more unbelievable by the hour.

Anonymous said...

What I'd like to know is why Sean was the only Steorn person there representing Steorn. Maybe the other engineers would have leaked too much information? You can have an extraordinary good liar but getting two or more who always tell exactly the same story is far harder.

maryyugo said...

"Grimer just leaked that one of the spud members in florida built something that ran for 8 hours."

Oh, poo. That should have read "one of the spud members ... something HE SAID ran for 8 hours."

Anyway, it's not much of a challenge to build a small machine that runs for very long periods-- based on changes in ambient temperature, atmospheric pressure, air currents and so on. Several such mechanisms are routinely used in clocks.

This is one of many (link).

Anonymous said...

In a court case against Grimer, Steorn would not have to prove that they have an OU-technology.
They would only have to prove that they have an NDA with him and that he disclosed information that he was not allowed to disclose due to the NDA.
So if he really leaked confidential information, he would not have a good chance to win against Steorn if they go to court.
So in this case (if Steorn chooses to take legal action), Grimer could most probably say good bye to a lot of money.
He would simply be very stupid, if he leaked confidential information ....

Anonymous said...

I have no interest in speculations about magnets, bearings or the flow of energy within an Orbo.
But I am very interested in the flow of money within Steorn. How many hundreds of thousands of Euro were invested? How many hundreds of Euro went into the little Orbos we have seen? Where did the rest of the money go? Why did the Steorn staff in London look so happy?

Suomipoika said...

If Grimer disclosed anything, he would most certainly lose the court case against Steorn. This happening, the Judge would order Grimer to compensate the damage to Steorn (zero euros) plus court expenses.

Steorn can ONLY demand compensation for the damage. Steorn can not demand any other penalty fees.

Damage will be estimated to zero euros, if Steorn can't prove in court that they are in the real business.

maryyugo said...

Here's an interesting question for the lawyer types. What if you get information that a particular claim is a scam which is stealing money from unwary investors BUT you're under an NDA. What is your legal method of behavior. Do you out the scam and face action about the NDA? Or face a conspiracy charge later for not disclosing a scam you knew about?

maryyugo said...

I am going out of a limb here and I will make a prediction. My psychic powers aided by a lovely crystal ball my gypsy ancestors handed down to me predict:

The best statement about this will eventually made by Dr. Mike. Give him a bit more time-- a few days at most.

Unless Mabuse throws him into a grinding machine before Mike gets the chance to chirp.

Suomipoika said...

Contracts have always an order in which they should be applied. LAW is always the first. If you have evidence of law breaking, you must tell everything to police despite any NDA:s or other contracts. I think this is trivial.

15-India-Street said...

Grimer@granthodges
(23 feb 2007)

"I have a £200 bet at evens with Hairy and I've just bet a quid against 5p with jwk that Steorn have what they claim. To be fair to jwk I'm sure he will be delighted to lose his 5p. Frankly, I think his opposition results more from the fact that he daren't let himself believe because he would be so disappointed if it all turned out to be untrue."

Hi Frank, do you pay Hairy the 200 quid now, or do you wait until there is more proof?
;-)

bc said...

@mary

I'm still not a lawyer, but the logical step would be to report it to an appropriate regulatory body or professional association, the police, or failing that a political representative. It appears Frank doesn't give two hoots about being sued though!

On bearings: apparently Sean has admitted the "hot lights" excuse was a porkie pie, in fact they have no real clue why the devices failed. The only two ways the device can fail is if it has no OU, or the bearings seize. Since he can't admit that they failed to get the OU part to work, the bearings have to be blamed.

Meanwhile, the oil price reaches new highs...

bc said...

@mary

I expect Dr Mike will report that because he was unable to examine a working Orbo, he was unable to verify any claims made by Steorn, so has to suspend judgement. He might have some good gossip from the pub though ;)

Also, I've submitted www.steorn.com to Crank Dot Net. I think they deserve a place there...

Anonymous said...

So just to be clear about how many lies Steorn have told. I know of four for certain.

Sean McCarthy lied about having a 550HP engine which Grimer caught him out on December 2006 - February 2007.

July 2nd Seamus Flanagan, Head of Business Development, told SPDC members to go and lie about the YouTube video of Sean McCarthy being in London, saying it was in Dublin.

Sean McCarthy told the press in report July 4th that the demo machine would be lifting weights and doing real work (exceeding friction). Which another Steorn employee then explicitly denied at 10am on 5th July 2007.

And now Sean McCarthy has also lied about the heat of the lights damaging the demo.

They seem to be pathological liars. Anyone know of further lies?

Anonymous said...

More lies:

First Quarter "Detailed Technical Specifications"

Start-stop display as backup for demo.

No more investment after August 2006

------------

Type "lie", "liar" or "Sean said" into the blog search here and you will find more. They keep a pretty good record of them around here. :)

Anonymous said...

15-India-Street said...
Grimer@granthodges
(23 feb 2007)

"I have a £200 bet at evens with Hairy and I've just bet a quid against 5p with jwk that Steorn have what they claim. To be fair to jwk I'm sure he will be delighted to lose his 5p. Frankly, I think his opposition results more from the fact that he daren't let himself believe because he would be so disappointed if it all turned out to be untrue."



I'd forgotten about that ! I win a pound ! woot.

You know where to send it Frank :)

maryyugo said...

I've downloaded the .AVI file of Sean's Kinetica post-fiasco conference from Google and looked at it a few times.

The first thing notable is that it was under-attended. I would've expected more people and much more critical questions. Everyone seemed to be softballing their questions. I wonder if that was a highly selected audience.

Second, I've been thinking of having someone make a transcript of that session. If I do, I know a lot of it won't be understandable to my American transcribed because of the poor audio quality and Sean's accent.

Is there anyone who reads this who attended and would be willing to correct and fill in the transcript to the best of their memory?

I'd ask on the Steorn forums but I'm still banned! I wrote an email to Magnatrix requested a reconsideration of that ban.

My first screenings of that video suggests that Sean didn't really give any important answers-- his responses seemed tangential and irrelevant to what people need to know.

Basically, that is, have they EVER made a system that works for a prolonged period of time; did they make a video of it (and if not why not) and why not show THAT to the public.

I think the credibility of the company is so damaged at this point and the need for "free energy" is so profound if it exists that there is no valid reason for anyone to withhold more compelling information if it does, in fact, exist.

So again: Anyone think there is value to my making available a transcript of the video? Anyone know who might have been there who could help fill in and correct a draft of such a transcript.

Thanks.

ezz said...

I can only see two possibilities at this point.

One, it's a hoax, and the forum was just a means to get a following to provide anecdotal leverage to get more money out of investors.

Two, they are the luckiest jerks ever. After sitting on a technology that could literally save millions of people, revolutionize agriculture in Africa and remove a fundamental bargaining chip of many despots, they still choose business over people. Even when their 'business' model seems incredibly shaky and they've lost all credibility.

If you like Steorn at all, you have to pick the first choice.

Anonymous said...

MARY, why did you get banned??

Anonymous said...

drmike on steorn's forum (thread: Latest news)

"There were a lot of people let into the kinetica site today around 11:00 this morning. Sean again profusely appologized, then answered a few questions. After that, we all went upstairs and several people played with rotors and stators and neos while Sean gave some descriptions of the core technology.

Sean said the main reason he had problems was the short time scale he gave the engineers. So he will not make any decisions for the next few days while the dust settles and he will give the engineers as much time as they need."

maryyugo said...

"MARY, why did you get banned?? "

I'm not sure. You should ask Magnatrix who presumably is the admin who banned me.

bc said...

I thought of making a transcript, but I can only make out about 50% of the audio.

The people there were obviously believers, it is more like a gathering of the faithful. Skeptics have already heard as many excuses as they can stomach ;)

The presence of the true believers helps Steorn tremendously, because it validates their own belief. They can say "we can't all be wrong". Sadly, they can, and are!

The only question now is how long it will take for the whole thing to fizzle out.

Senthil Kumar said...

There is no need for a transcript. There was very little that was said really.

Basically, Sean took responsibility for the failure and gave weak excuses for the failed demo.

End of Story.

The probability of a fraud/hoax is now very high.

Anonymous said...

The first thing notable is that it was under-attended. I would've expected more people and much more critical questions. Everyone seemed to be softballing their questions. I wonder if that was a highly selected audience.

Yes, anyone who valued their time did not attend at 15:00 on a Friday afternoon. There were no journalists in attendance either. Those that attended were those clinging onto hope. Such people don't ask tough questions.

Anonymous said...

All...
Do you think his is a normal behavior?


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/message/824


Quote from Grimer:
"When it was announced the no demo would take place my son went up to the Steorn employee standing outside and really tore into him hoping to provoke him to hit him - not normally difficult with an Irishman. The person was extremely, how shall I describe it, Zombified. "

Thanks.

couldbe said...

Anonymous said...

All...
Do you think his is a normal behavior?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/message/824

Quote from Grimer:my son went up to the Steorn employee hoping to provoke him to hit him
++++++++++++++

No I do not think it is normal. I am amazed that Grimer's son would do something as abnormal as that.


++++++++++++++
The person was extremely, how shall I describe it, Zombified. "
++++++++++++++

It's understandable the Steorn people would be in shock after such a debacle. I am glad to have that bit of testimony because it tends to show that Steorn expected the demo to work; the failure wasn't part of some byzantine plot.

Anonymous said...

I disagree. They would not have been in shock. They would have been extremely angry, edgy and frustrated with their failure. The guy in the red jacket was CALM. Moreover there was no activity at the Museum nor evidence of activity.

They did absolutely nothing to try and salvage any credibility. Show a video, bring a working machine from Ireland.

The following two nights Friday and Saturday they went to the pub and drank with members of the SPUD club. That does not appear to me as people who have just massively screwed up a demo that they wanted NEEDED to pull off. It sounds like people that knew they never had anything to show.